Is it Legal to use an arcade machine running retropie, put it in a public place and charge quarters to use it?

jonnykesh

Hyruleslink

@jonnykesh said:
"Blockbuster had a licence from the publisher to rent the game to a member on a temporary basis."

This is completely false and incorrect. There was no legislation or practice of requiring licences for videogame rentals. Nintendo fought Blockbuster tooth and nail to prevent game rentals and to protect their copyrights. Nintendo lost that war and the only battle they ultimately won over Blockbuster was the prevention of photocopying game manuals, because they were being unlawfully reproduced.

Raistlin84

In my country the emulation software is permitted only if it doesn't use code from the original software.
So first point the emulator is ok, but you can't use bios from the orginal console! Owning the Bios is always forbidden, downloading it too.
Downloading copyrighted software is always forbidden, so you can't download the rom. You can have a game rom if you own it and the user license doesn't forbid.
After such things, you must read the License Agreement because in the 99,9999% you can't use store in plubic place, free of charge too.
The denstist example with the snes is good, he can't do it. In many commercial licenses (maybe all) is reported "home use only". So it is really simple, you can do only breaking the law. I don't agree with actual laws, but we aren't talking about this.

matchaman

I have the exact same question but for "free to play" instead. I plan to open a vintage-themed cafe and have a cabinet with my RetroPie setup (MAME & consoles) for everyone to play. Could that be illegal in some way?

I mean, it could be seen as a means to attract customers but personally I just want to give more of a retro look but without charging anything extra. My only restriction would be that only customers should be allowed to play (not random visitors).

BobHarris

@matchaman I think the same rules for movies apply to games. You can watch a dvd you bought together with some friends in your home. But you are not allowed to show the movie to people in a public place.
Also it seems like you want to make money of it indirectly by only allowing customers to play.

Raistlin84

I hate to quote me XD, however what I've said before (in my country, thought all the EU) it's for free of charge too. Software licenses are for domestic/home use only, you can't have Bios roms, and you need the original game of the roms, even if you have the orginal game you couldn't download it, you must rip from cartridge/cd, and use for you personal domestic entertainment only.
You can only use software with copyleft, but you must read license agreement because many report that can't be used to cross commercial gain.

So, need something retro? Use something broken only for atmosphere.
However using the original hardware is a minor infringement, you maybe violate license to use but not the copyright. Maybe an original Nes, Atari, Snes (nes snes mini too) free of charge with a set of original cartridge could go unnoticed. However you are breaking the license to use, so teorically Nintendo/Atari/etc could ask you for usege rights.

You could search if there is a license for public commercial concern.

matchaman

@bobharris said in Is it Legal to use an arcade machine running retropie, put it in a public place and charge quarters to use it?:

@matchaman I think the same rules for movies apply to games. You can watch a dvd you bought together with some friends in your home. But you are not allowed to show the movie to people in a public place.
Also it seems like you want to make money of it indirectly by only allowing customers to play.

I think there's a general license for movies and audio to be played in a public place (not a specific one for each movie or artist) but I'm very unsure about games, especially in the EU.

I don't plan to make money off of it, the reason I wouldn't allow non-customers to play is that people who would come just to play would be generally troublemakers here in Athens (Greece).

For example, a friend had a free to use jukebox in his bar and people visited just to mess it up and kept vandalising it every time. Ever since he asked the waiters to allow only customers, the jukebox has been remaining in good condition.

Clyde

In another thread a similar discussion inclined me to look up the respective sections of U.S. Copyright Law:

@clyde said in Where to (legally) acquire content to play on RetroPie:

Under the U.S. Copyright Law, Chapter 1, Section 101, "publicly" means

(1) to perform or display it at a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered

That sounds to me like most workspaces. Further on, Section 106 states that

the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
[...]
(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;

There is no mention of charging money; the mere performance seems to be protected.

Lurker

@Clyde is correct and I appreciate it when people go to the "source code" as it were. Copyright law does not have to cover "charging for" or profiting from copyrighted material as copyright law gives the holder protection on the "use" of the material in general.

The idea behind this is that if I wanted to harm a theater's business by showing the same movie for free right next to them, I would be in violation of copyright law and would be harming the copyright holder's ability to profit from their work. Any money I might make is not relevant but the harm I cause to the copyright holder is.

For the letter of the law you are not going to be able to offer copyrighted material (for free or otherwise) to the public without some work to get use licenses.*

The side note here, that I am a might hesitant to bring up, is a question of enforcement and focus. If the presence or absence of this item was key to your business functioning then it is pretty much violating the spirit of copyright. If it is an inconsequential piece that has little to no effect to your business, the surrounding businesses or copyright holders potential to profit from the material then the chances that you will upset anyone are small.

The dentist example is in that second case. Letter of law; yup violation. Spirit of law; meh. The line gets crossed if the dentist puts out an add saying "come to my dentist office, we have free snes games to play." he is now incorporating it into his business model and the legal argument that would follow is that people wanting to play snes (and maybe get dental work done) would go to his place instead of purchasing a system and thus he has harmed the copyright holders ability to sell those people a snes system.

To look at your specific example, I would say it is a bit too close to the edge. The arcade is a function of your business (retro cafe) and would be a draw for customers. If the arcade was missing it would arguably have an impact on attendance. You would run a higher risk of getting into trouble. For your case, if you want the retro feel, I would recommend just spending the money for a genuine arcade machine and either setting it to free play or not. Purchasing an actual coin arcade includes the public use license and follows the individual machine.

An example on the other side of the line; I know a guy who is a martial arts teacher. He has a mame cabinet in the dojo that the students can play while waiting for the class to start or after class while waiting for their parents to pick them up. The cabinet is irrelevant to the class and the kids have to hang out before and after class whether the cabinet is there or not. So if someone was to raise a fuss then he would take it home and it would have little to no impact on his business. Nor does it impact any business around him as there is no arcade next door the kids would use instead. Nor does it impact the copyright holders as he is not harming any potential that the kids would have purchased an arcade or spent their time at an arcade instead as they lack the freedom to make alternate choices and have to sit there waiting for their parents.

Letter of the law, still a violation, but not really what the law is trying to prevent. I understand how it can be a fine an fuzzy line.

In summation; As others have said, as a guideline, if you can answer "yes" to the question? "Hey would this help me make money directly or inadvertently?" then ya, you are probably violating copyright law.

Want a second catchy slogan? "If you are worried about it then you probably shouldn't do it."

Clyde

@lurker said in Is it Legal to use an arcade machine running retropie, put it in a public place and charge quarters to use it?:

"If you are worried about it then you probably shouldn't do it."

Nice one, I'd add "or, if you decide to do it anyway, take eventual consequences with equanimity (i.e. don't bother the world with endless complains about its unfairness)." ;)

benjaminjay

What about "e-sports" arenas and similar places that run mix of current gen consoles and PCs? Wouldn't this be illegal too?

Lurker

@benjaminjay said in Is it Legal to use an arcade machine running retropie, put it in a public place and charge quarters to use it?:

What about "e-sports" arenas and similar places that run mix of current gen consoles and PCs? Wouldn't this be illegal too?

I'm not sure what specific business licensing arrangements the e-sports or game cafes may have but it may be similar to stage theaters. If you what to put on a play, the scripts are readily available but you have to pay for the rights to perform the play. Back in High School I was the director for a 1 act play along with a couple other student directors. We decided on "The actors Nightmare" and we had to pay $110 for just the rights to perform it.

One thing that stands out for "e-sports" arenas and game cafe's that you can see without going into paper work is that they have purchased each console and copies of games for each system. By doing this they have purchased multiple licenses of the systems and games being played.

You can see how this begins to fall under the "rental" model. But I can skip the details of the legality on how you can rent a game to others and go right back to the user not owning the roms they will load on the Retropie.

The two biggest items to the "Can I build an arcade and charge people to use it?" idea is;

You do not own the roms or a use license for that rom.
The software that is running the rom (retropie and the specific emulator) is open source and has its own restrictions and limitations to commercialization. (see all the above thread)

benjaminjay

@lurker The general consensus I have gathered from establishments utilizing consoles and PCs for gaming thus far is that the respective hardware and software companies don't really enforce their restrictions. Obviously this may be totally different regarding emulators, but if they aren't actively concerned about their current generation products being used in a commercial setting, would they really spend their resources on pursuing violations regarding their older products?

Loggahead

@lurker said in Is it Legal to use an arcade machine running retropie, put it in a public place and charge quarters to use it?:

You do not own the roms or a use license for that rom.
The software that is running the rom (retropie and the specific emulator) is open source and has its own restrictions and limitations to commercialization. (see all the above thread)

I'm not looking to do this any of this but find this topic interesting. Out of curiosity, what about the Jamma multi-in-one boards? I saw a store in a mall that sells pool tables, pinball machines, and arcade machines. Their arcade machines were all various forms of 64-in-1, 16-in-1, etc etc. and seemed to be set up for commercial use. Are those actually licensed versions of those games and able to be used in this way? Does it depend on the board? I dunno... just curious.

Clyde

@loggahead Either they licensed the games or their products are illegal in many countries. Whereas I think it's more probable that a 16-in-1 machine is licensed than one of those x-thousands-in-ones.

Loggahead

@clyde said in Is it Legal to use an arcade machine running retropie, put it in a public place and charge quarters to use it?:

Whereas I think it's more probable that a 16-in-1 machine is licensed than one of those x-thousands-in-ones.

I was thinking that too. I wonder how someone would even know? you know? Most people would probably buy something like a multi-in-one and not even think that about it's legality and then possibly find themselves in a pickle. Interesting...

Clyde

@loggahead Yes, as interesting as it is that even big players like Amazon and eBay have these most likely illegal products on their marketplaces.

As for how you can know? Well, you can't ultimately, but you can ask the vendors or manufacturers about it. If they assure you that their products are licensed correctly, at least you could show that to anyone who might ask you about your purchase.

Lurker

@Loggahead and @Clyde I am of the same mind that the 10s in 1 boards are more likely licensed to be produced and the 1000s in 1 are more likely less on the level. The tell in most cases are how many different companies are represented in the game list. Sega or NeoGeo can offer a large number of game titles to the manufacturer of one board and the deal would be one umbrella license. Or you may notice certain titles missing that are under some exclusive agreement that has not lapsed yet. But if you see Sega and Nintendo in the same machine (as an example) using Nintendo and Sega because I am not well versed in who owes what major arcade names The chances something is not 100% legit goes up fast.

It is like that in all sorts of things. Notice you will rarely see soda vending machines offer Coke AND Pepsi at the same time.

Everything does get a lot trickier when you start dealing with much older and more easily reproduced items like custom boards and retro games. It often times becomes a chain of you did your best to ensure everything is legit and so you are trusting the company you buy from has done their part and so on back to the copyright holder. In the event of a legal complaint it becomes a hot potato game of "did you cover your butt?"

I haven't looked but I wonder if the copyright and trademark of Pacman is still even owned or if made it is close to entering the public domain for the US...

Takes a moment to check

Yup thanks to Disney's efforts to hold onto the Mouse the common expiration for copyright of the first games has not even come due yet. Of course there will be exceptions for games that were never copyrighted or someone screwed up.

@benjaminjay I agree that most game cafe's and such don't do their full due diligence in terms of having full legal right to do everything they do. Enforcement , awareness and risk are all factors for that as well. And that is a big and tricky part of the total picture which is why I tend to distance myself from weighing in on it. I try to keep my input on the objective technical bit.

Is it legal? That we can discuss easily and evenly and even come to a definitive conclusion. Ya @Loggahead I find it interesting too while having no plans to do so myself.

Can I get away with it? That is more subjective and not everyone's compass will point the same way. Dicier, but can still be a worth while conversation if everyone involved in the conversation can keep a level head.

Should I do (insert morally questionable action here)? That's the hot button. And I try to keep my distance from them as the opinions to that answer and justification for the answer can be wild, emotional and greatly varied.

Clyde

@lurker said in Is it Legal to use an arcade machine running retropie, put it in a public place and charge quarters to use it?:

It is like that in all sorts of things. Notice you will rarely see soda vending machines offer Coke AND Pepsi at the same time.

Well said. :)

@benjaminjay I agree that most game cafe's and such don't do their full due diligence in terms of having full legal right to do everything they do.

I can tell, as my return to the emulation scene after many years of hibernation was triggerd by an obviously custom made MAME cocktail table in a German craft beer bar in Winter 2016. Now, I have a self-made upright cabinet in my living room. Damn those bar operators! ;) (and the "good friend" who led us there)