www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed

herb_fargus

@KiloPIE the issue isn't whether or not people are stupid enough to waste their money. The issue is these greedy dbags are profiting off of the work of the developers and people in this community.

markwkidd

Umm, when I see clauses like this I feel like they are not 'dbags' but instead people with a respect for licensing: SNES, Sega Genesis and FB Alpha (arcade cabinet games) emulators have non-commercial licenses and must be downloaded by the user themselves.

For my part, I have contributed well more than 100 hours of my time to improving the way that RetroArch works, particularly for arcade emulation. I am totally fine with people taking that work and making money from it, which is why I contributed my work with a GPL license.

I don't need anyone to white-knight for my open sourced intellectual property. I decided to open source it by contributing to RetroArch and that was my call. If there is some specific violation of someone elses licensed IP that's a part of these products, then fine let's point it out and I'm right with you on enforcing the license.

martin88

@markwkidd I agree with you. People seem to just dislike any monetary transactions involving Raspberry-Pi-retro-gaming, even if they're perfectly legitimate. Just because you had to spent all the time learning to set one up yourself you're not entitled to forbid others for wanting to pay for this set up service.

A bit of an elitist attitude to be honest.

herb_fargus

@martin88 it's a matter of respecting licences. Not elitism. I have no problem with people setting up arcade hardware and pi kits so long as they aren't selling software that have non commercial licences.

As far as elitism, if people are too lazy to learn something new and would rather throw money at something, that's their loss is that want to wallow in sloth and mediocrity. I care very little for people with no ambition.

A Former User

@martin88 said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

People seem to just dislike any monetary transactions involving Raspberry-Pi-retro-gaming, even if they're perfectly legitimate.

As it has been pointed out it is not "perfectly legitimate" at all. Guy has one clause to cover his ass - quite possibly after some backlash - and yet continue selling/using other trademarked properties such as RetroPie, themes and whatever else (I guess you can only find out by buying one since his utube/website doesn't carry the same info.)

Then you have extreme price gouging - double the mark up on components for installing one image on SD? Sure, cool job if you can get it. But no, wait, here the man himself explains the sweat & toil that the inventor of a "best retro gaming multi-system ever " had to go through:

Have you ever designed and built a game console? Get back to us after your days of research, configuration, testing, optimizing, overclocking and let us know what you think a good price would be :-)

markwkidd

@arkive said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

@martin88 said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

People seem to just dislike any monetary transactions involving Raspberry-Pi-retro-gaming, even if they're perfectly legitimate.

As it has been pointed out it is not "perfectly legitimate" at all. Guy has one clause to cover his ass - quite possibly after some backlash - and yet continue selling/using other trademarked properties such as RetroPie, themes and whatever else (I guess you can only find out by buying one since his utube/website doesn't carry the same info.)

Forgive me, but please could you recap exactly what license or trademark violations, specifically, that you are talking about?

markwkidd

@herb_fargus said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

@martin88 it's a matter of respecting licences. Not elitism. I have no problem with people setting up arcade hardware and pi kits so long as they aren't selling software that have non commercial licences.

I am ready to start filing complaints if you can show me what software with a non-commercial license is being sold.

A Former User

@markwkidd

Retropie
emulationstation themes

Like I said to find out which ones he's selling atm (website says Lakka, his vids & feeds say RetroPie) we'd have to purchase one - something I'm kind of reluctant to do.

This is beside the point anyway - even if this guy was "smart" enough to backtrack and legalise his warez it does not change the general point - just hit the ebay and you'll find instead of this saint a 100 more blatant ones who also ship it with roms etc.

markwkidd

@arkive said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

@markwkidd

Retropie

emulationstation themes

Like I said to find out which ones he's selling atm (website says Lakka, his vids & feeds say RetroPie) we'd have to purchase one - something I'm kind of reluctant to do.

This is beside the point anyway - even if this guy was "smart" enough to backtrack and legalise his warez it does not change the general point - just hit the ebay and you'll find instead of this saint a 100 more blatant ones who also ship it with roms etc.

OK. You don't know for sure what copyright violation you're alleging. That may be defamation in some jurisdictions, but I'm not a lawyer.

However I do feel qualified to say that this is an example of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD): "Fear, uncertainty and doubt (often shortened to FUD) is a disinformation strategy used in sales, marketing, public relations, talk radio, politics, religious organizations, and propaganda. FUD is generally a strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear."

I also feel confident that your posts are part of an overall Chilling Effect, as pointed out by @martin88: "In a legal context, a chilling effect is the inhibition or discouragement of the legitimate exercise of natural and legal rights by the threat of legal sanction."

If you are in the US, and so are the people responsible for this effort, you may be liable for Defamation if it turns out that they are, in fact, distributing the software within the terms of its licenses.

In other words, if we're going to talk about intellectual property as a legal matter, then let's do it the right way and look at the accuser as well as the accused.

A Former User

@markwkidd For somebody who's "not a lawyer" you seem quite well versed in these matters, well at least insofar as copypasting Wikipedia is involved in a 5 minute kneejerk reaction to an online dispute.

I'm not in the US - UK in fact, but I'm pretty sure the impressive litany of laws 'n effects you quoted are applicable here as well. Please feel free to report me to appropriate authorities, on my side I'll be more than happy to appear in any local court of law regarding this "case" - my email and details available on request. Feel free to contact the "accused" and mention this too.

Although this exchange has become one of the most preposterously ridiculous I've ever witnessed online - and believe me, I saw a few - it wouldn't surprise me if you actually did.

markwkidd

@arkive said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

@markwkidd For somebody who's "not a lawyer" you seem quite well versed in these matters, well at least insofar as copypasting Wikipedia is involved in a 5 minute kneejerk reaction to an online dispute.

I'm not in the US - UK in fact, but I'm pretty sure the impressive litany of laws 'n effects you quoted are applicable here as well. Please feel free to report me to appropriate authorities, on my side I'll be more than happy to appear in any local court of law regarding this "case" - my email and details available on request. Feel free to contact the "accused" and mention this too.

Although this exchange has become one of the most preposterously ridiculous I've ever witnessed online - and believe me, I saw a few - it wouldn't surprise me if you actually did.

You posted in a well-trafficked public forum accusing people of an intellectual property crime, and asking for people to join your bandwagon. In a formal setting, the burden of proof would be on you to argue the situation.

Regardless of any legal principles around burden of proof: In the spirit of open source, informality, and internationalism, I've critiqued your claims and provided references.

Yes, I do care a lot about open source and have therefore taken the time to provide references written in the Wikipedia vernacular regarding issues I see with your accusation.

Unlike yourself, I don't have an interest in prosecuting someone who may have inadvertently made an error due to ignorance. If you do still feel that this product is a violation of natural or legal rights, I'd like to hear about it and have a chance to refute. If you retract your claim, that's fine too.

A Former User

@markwkidd said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

If you do still feel that this product is a violation of natural or legal rights, I'd like to hear about it and have a chance to refute. If you retract your claim, that's fine too.

I'm afraid that any reasonable discussion between us ended the moment you threatened legal action against me. I can not take you seriously anymore and participate in any further exchange on the subject.

Feel free to follow up with your threats though.

markwkidd

@arkive said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

@markwkidd said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

If you do still feel that this product is a violation of natural or legal rights, I'd like to hear about it and have a chance to refute. If you retract your claim, that's fine too.

I'm afraid that any reasonable discussion between us ended the moment you threatened legal action against me. I can not take you seriously anymore and participate in any further exchange on the subject.

Feel free to follow up with your threats though.

I don't think I threatened you with any legal action. In fact, I said that unlike you I'm not litigious about this issue. I did, however, advise you that there is another crime ("defamation") that you ought to be worried about. I have no standing to claim defamation against you so it's fine for us to talk. :D

In short: I am not now, or in the future, interested in legal action against you.

Please feel free to post whatever you think is relevant!

A Former User

@markwkidd said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

I don't think I threatened you with any legal action. In fact, I said that unlike you I'm not litigious about this issue.

You didn't? I'm so relieved. I could say something along the lines: "just like I never threatened that guy with litigation nor asked anybody to jump on my bandwagon" and carry on with our exchange, but I'm afraid what I said earlier - that I can't take you seriously anymore - still stands, so it wouldn't work.

This therefore is my last post regarding this subject, which - I'll give you that - I was quite foolish to participate in.

markwkidd

@arkive said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

@markwkidd said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

I don't think I threatened you with any legal action. In fact, I said that unlike you I'm not litigious about this issue.

You didn't? I'm so relieved. I could say something along the lines: "just like I never threatened that guy with litigation nor asked anybody to jump on my bandwagon" and carry on with our exchange, but I'm afraid what I said earlier - that I can't take you seriously anymore - still stands, so it wouldn't work.

This therefore is my last post regarding this subject, which - I'll give you that - I was quite foolish to participate in.

Ok, I can understand being worried and wanting to stop writing on the record if you think there is a legal concern afoot. That is of course exactly the kind of feeling you tried to create among the targests of your posts on this issue.

That "chilling effect" is exactly what I'm arguing against for their sake and for yours. Maybe I should drop out of this thread as well -- it would not be the first time that I have felt the social need to 'peace out' of an IP-related thread here! :)

Why do I post about this? I feel like I have a stake because:

I believe in open-source licensing as one of the important development of our era, a) in terms of preserving our cultural heritage and b) in terms of the legal framework around "intellectual property" (a field of law that is only a couple of hundred years old -- in other words, pretty new)
I have extensively contributed my time to the software in question, although as with Open Source in general, my 100s of hours are dwarfed by the 1000s of hours that other s have also put in
I have invested a much smaller amount of cash, probably about $50, in bounties for other folks to create GPL RetroArch code on issues that are beyond my technical ability

On those grounds, I take it as an affront to open source and to my own contributions to this particular codebase when I see a culture that demonizes folks from earning income from GPL (and other commerce-friendly) emluator code.

I wish I had written that at the beginning. Next time I will.

A Former User

@markwkidd said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

@arkive said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

@markwkidd said in www.retrogame.club another scam site selling retropie pre-installed:

I don't think I threatened you with any legal action. In fact, I said that unlike you I'm not litigious about this issue.

You didn't? I'm so relieved. I could say something along the lines: "just like I never threatened that guy with litigation nor asked anybody to jump on my bandwagon" and carry on with our exchange, but I'm afraid what I said earlier - that I can't take you seriously anymore - still stands, so it wouldn't work.

This therefore is my last post regarding this subject, which - I'll give you that - I was quite foolish to participate in.

Ok, I can understand being worried and wanting to stop writing on the record if you think there is a legal concern afoot. That is of course exactly the kind of feeling you tried to create among the targests of your posts on this issue.

That "chilling effect" is exactly what I'm arguing against for their sake and for yours. Maybe I should drop out of this thread as well -- it would not be the first time that I have felt the social need to 'peace out' of an IP-related thread here! :)

Why do I post about this? I feel like I have a stake because:

I believe in open-source licensing as one of the important development of our era, a) in terms of preserving our cultural heritage and b) in terms of the legal framework around "intellectual property" (a field of law that is only a couple of hundred years old -- in other words, pretty new)

I have extensively contributed my time to the software in question, although as with Open Source in general, my 100s of hours are dwarfed by the 1000s of hours that other s have also put in

I have invested a much smaller amount of cash, probably about $50, in bounties for other folks to create GPL RetroArch code on issues that are beyond my technical ability

On those grounds, I take it as an affront to open source and to my own contributions to this particular codebase when I see a culture that demonizes folks from earning income from GPL (and other commerce-friendly) emluator code.

I wish I had written that at the beginning. Next time I will.

Great work guys, keep it coming

EDIT: btw all these sites selling loaded devices I see forum posts about are small fish,

Isn't anyone bothered about big boys doing it? Like "Toms Retro Shack" and "Pixle Arcade".

These seem like decent size businesses and not just some guy selling a few devices from home...

Retroxpert

Everyone on here should have known the instant this kid "Darksavior" opened the entire thread with "SCAM SITE!" followed by "but today he defended his scam and then got his cronies to point and laugh at me," that he was on a personal vendetta and that he wrote this entire thread not because this retroclub is a scam website, but rather because Darksavior was butthurt some guy trying to make a business for himself stood up for his rights to use Open Source code in his project. Boo Hoo. Grow up man you're hurting this entire community, no one respects that behavior.

@markwkidd The RetroPie community is thankful to have someone so level-headed as you representing these forums. So many of these kids make rediculous claims and hurt the distribution of RetroPie, making people want to stay far away from it and not want to use it for their businesses. As long as a company is adhering to Open Source, GNU and MIT Licensing requirements and not selling ROMS or BIOS files with their systems, they are not violating the law and are far from "scamming" people.

I think most of these kids don't understand what business is, or understand capitalism. Naturally if an open source project (by definition Open Source is commercially usable) is well-made, businesses will want to take it on. This should be viewed as a compliment. If the developers of EmulationStation and RetroPie wanted no business to be allowed to use their code, they would not have released it under Open Source and GNU Licensing.

Also for all those people whining about how "selling open source software is bad" boo hoo, I hope none of you have Android Phones which are OPEN SOURCE and being SOLD, but I don't see you writing your tear-filled novels to Google about their Open Source platform being used for profit by other companies.

BuZz

@retroxpert actually retropie was non commercial. We relicenced it as the licence was ignored anyway - but actually I regret doing so, as the selling of RetroPie (often with roms), gives our project a bad name. Many of the components are non commercial though so unless they ship with no snes emulator (and many others), they may already be in breach. They also include our non commercial artwork in their youtube video, so I assume they are in breach if that's the image they provide their customers with.

this is them too: Which is fine if they release all sources etc. But I don't see how its doable without the non commercial emulators.
https://www.upwork.com/job/Create-New-Setup-Script-for-EmulationStation-Software-Similar-RetroPie-Create-New-Software-Package_~01ccd6f67a7cd159bc/

Personal attacks are not welcome here BTW - so I suggest you edit your post before I remove you.

[edit] I assumed you were related to the site in question when I first read your post. I fixed this reply.

BuZz

@kilopie we have tried to go after them. Unfortunately we don't have the money or manpower. They ship RetroPie with copyrighted ROMs and Kodi with addons to stream copyrighted content. Amazon, eBay, Facebook, Shopify don't care either about these sellers.

Darksavior

@retroxpert Such nonsense. His "product" was nothing more than retropie. Legal or not legal, it's a scam. Your long winded response seems like you know the person or know him in some way. His friends defended him in a hostile way as well. Others have posted scams and I'm no different. In this case, the person decided to get hostile at me and get his friends to reply as well.

Also, a few android phones have proprietary software. Samsung's touchwiz OS, built from android source and heavily modified, is NOT open source.