Open Joystick Talk

Clyde

Hi,

this is a continuation of the off-topic joystick talk in another thread. Feel free to share your experiences with various joystick brands and models, and/or your philosophies about the "best"™ ways to control your retro avatars. I'll start with a copy of my review of Ultimarc's Mag-Stik Plus:

Pros:

good, sturdy worksmanship
quick responses, very short actuation travel (If you like that.)
The 4/8-way switching by pulling the stick up and turning it works fine – if you reassemble the stick precisely (see below).
The connector pins are slightly smaller than those of my Zippyy sticks, making (dis-)connecting the wires less painful for my fingers. :)

Cons:

very short actuation travel (If you don't like that.)
Clearly audible microswitches, although they are not soldered and can be replaced with more silent ones relatively easily.
Strong centering power that requires a certain strength to move the stick and may fatigue your hands after some time. The leverage of the relatively long bat top compensates for that to some extend, so it may just be a matter of playing technique. If that's your only gripe about the Mag-Stik, see these instructions to lessen the magnetic pull.
Shorter mounting plate than Zippyy (and Sanwa I think), that's incompatible with the holes in my control panel. I didn't know that these holes aren't standardised, now I do. :P For the time being, two of four screws hold the Mag-Stiks firmly enough, but I may have to purchase an adapter plate if I decide to keep them. You can see the exact dimensions in the mounting diagrams on the Ultimarc website.
If the joystick holes in your CP aren't big enough to let the bat top through, you'll have to dismantle the 4/8-way switching mechanism on the shaft and remove the shaft completely. The mounting diagrams also show the assembling order of all the parts.
At first, I seem to have made a miniscule discrepancy in reassembling the stick, resulting in unreliable way switching and occational unresponsiveness in certain directions. After dismantling and reassembling the stick once more, both issues seem to have disappeared. So, a certain minimum of manual skills and dilligence is advisable.

All in all, I can recommend the Mag-Stik Plus if you're aware of the issues above. I tested them in fighting games, shoot em ups, and labyrinth games (pac man etc.) In my web research about these sticks, I found this video that compares many common arcade joysticks including Zippyy, Sanwa and the Mag-Stik:

The reviewer notes that you might only need one Mag Stik Plus because 4-way games tend to have alternating 2-player modes that use only one stick for both players (except for cocktail cabinets). Its little sibling, the normal Mag-Stik without the Plus and "only" with a 4/8-way switch underneath its mounting plate, is significantly cheaper and may suffice as the second joystick, as would any other 8-way joystick if you don't mind the more or less different design.

Update: Added audible microswitches to the cons list.

Clyde

@baviaannl said in Full Size Arcade Build - DC Vs Marvel:

Interesting reading your opinions of the Mag Stick Pro's.

I had 2 arrive today although haven't had a chance to install to my cab yet (job for tomorrow)

My first observation regarding the lift and twist mechanism to switch between 4 or 8 position is that the lift isn't necessary, I seem to be able to simply twist in order to achieve the task, is it the same with yours?

Not a massive issue as twisting the stick isn't necessary, just curious as to why the lift isn't necessary on these sticks.

That shouldn't be the case. The turn-switching should only occur when the stick is pulled up and the two pins of the metal washer slide into the keyways of the plastic piece above it. Seems like your washer doesn't slide down (enough) to let go of the mechanism above it. You may want to dismantle and reassemble the mechanism, that fixed another problem for me.

edit: Normally, when not pulled up, the washer turns freely with the shaft independently from the rest of the mechanism. Thus, you'll have to pull up the shaft gently and turn it until you feel it snapping into the keyways and coming up slightly more. Only then, you turn it to switch. Don't pull up too strongly, lest you damage the plastic piece (it would be better if that piece would also be made from metal to avoid that.) In my experience, you'll get the right feeling for it after a short time.

thelostsoul

Hi, I can't give such detailed answer, but I want recommend an arcade stick. In reference, before this I played Street Fighter iv series for years with the Madcatz TE arcade stick (not mine) on xbox 360. Since I desperately needed an arcad stick too, which works with Windows, X-Box 360 and Playstation 4, I tried one multiplatform Stick, which is a little cheaper in price too (80 Euro vs. over 200 Euro for each system). I tried (and still have it):

Mayflash Universal Arcade Flight-Stick F500

It feels heavy and good and I think, there is no lag or other problems. I say this, because to use it on the PS4 you need to plugin a controller to it. A friend of me have the previous version, which is for single system only. It works with Raspberry Pi 3 and Retropie 4 too. I use it for Arcade and Neo Geo stuff.

Unlike mine Buffalo SNES Gamepads, Retropie does not come with default settings for this or I don't understand something in relation. In example, if I change in Retroarch menu the configured Arcade Stick as Player 1 to Player 2, then I have to reconfigure it and setting up the buttons. In contrast, if I change my Buffalo SNES gamepad from Player 1 to Player 2, then all buttons are pre configured or I just hit the load defaults button.

My question is, is it possible to do the same for the Arcade Stick? I saw in a folder somewhere files with gamepad settings. Is that the right place? Sorry for beeing not more clear, as I am not at home currently.

BaviaanNL

@clyde said in Open Joystick Talk:

@baviaannl said in Full Size Arcade Build - DC Vs Marvel:

Interesting reading your opinions of the Mag Stick Pro's.

I had 2 arrive today although haven't had a chance to install to my cab yet (job for tomorrow)

My first observation regarding the lift and twist mechanism to switch between 4 or 8 position is that the lift isn't necessary, I seem to be able to simply twist in order to achieve the task, is it the same with yours?

Not a massive issue as twisting the stick isn't necessary, just curious as to why the lift isn't necessary on these sticks.

That shouldn't be the case. The turn-switching should only occur when the stick is pulled up and the two pins of the metal washer slide into the keyways of the plastic piece above it. Seems like your washer doesn't slide down (enough) to let go of the mechanism above it. You may want to dismantle and reassemble the mechanism, that fixed another problem for me.

edit: Normally, when not pulled up, the washer turns freely with the shaft independently from the rest of the mechanism. Thus, you'll have to pull up the shaft gently and turn it until you feel it snapping into the keyways and coming up slightly more. Only then, you turn it to switch. Don't pull up too strongly, lest you damage the plastic piece (it would be better if that piece would also be made from metal to avoid that.) In my experience, you'll get the right feeling for it after a short time.

Found some time to take them apart today, after reassembly they seem to work properly now, I do have long term doubts over the suitability of the sticks bush... naturally over time that part will pick up some wear and I'm not how it'll hold up. I might see if I can design something better on the 3D printer. Just about to install them now.... I'm coming from Zippo sticks although the deadzone is terrible on them, I like the precise nature of the Mag Stik.

BaviaanNL

Well I got the sticks installed today although have a directional issue, when in 4 way mode, the <right> direction is not very reliable although when using 8 way mode it's perfect!. Anything you came across @Clyde ?

Clyde

@thelostsoul I have a legacy version of the F500 (black with black buttons) and its little brother F300. I like them very much. I didn't try them with Retropie yet, so alas, I can't help you with the settings.

@BaviaanNL I also noticed that the 4-way mode of the Mag-Stik doesn't feel as smooth as the 8-way mode. I'll test it further with a friend this weekend, in addition to the two Sanwa JLF-TP-8YT-SK I ordered this week. Chances are good that they'll arrive in time.

BaviaanNL

It's unusual as in both 4 & 8 way, I can see the contact on the switch and it's connecting well, wondering if it will work better over time, could be a little stiff maybe although that obviously doesn't explain why 8 way works so well.

Clyde

@baviaannl If you don't mind the extra effort, you could turn the black plastic peace 90° and see if the problem moves to the up or down direction.

More about my sticks after today's testing session.

UDb23

After trying different arcade sticks my feeling is that none of the solutions to "switch" an 8-way stick to 4-ways will provide you good gameplay on classics like Pac man or Pengo that had a 4 way only stick. Therefore I'm going to try a real 4 way only stick; just ordered a Happ ms pacman stick.

Also bought a Qanba N1 to be used as "enclosure" by trying to replace the actual provided stick with the Happ and also real arcade buttons.

Clyde

@udb23 Thanks for sharing your experiences. What exactly are "real arcade buttons" and where can they be bought?

UDb23

@clyde said in Open Joystick Talk:

real arcade buttons"

I mean arcade buttons with microswitches (Cherry brand being the best) made to be used on arcade cabs. Personally I prefer concave buttons like I used to play in arcades as a kid.
You can see them on the 2 player control panel I built last year.

I bought sticks, buttons and ipac2 from Arcadeworld in the uk but many other shops specialized in arcade controls exist.

Clyde

@udb23 Thanks for the info, I'm also buying at ArcadeworldUK after some disappointments with two Arcade shops in Germany. The (edit:) Cherry microswitches' description in the shop says that they have "a soft click and low actuation force, which is highly noticable when compared to arcade buttons fitted with alternative microswitches". Can you verify this? How do you rate the buttons in the matter of actuation force and noise?

UDb23

@clyde said in Open Joystick Talk:

How do you rate the buttons in the matter of actuation force and noise?

I can say I'm really happy with them; click sound is of course noticeable but that's exactly how it should sound to me (I don't remember any silent buttons in arcades).
Actuation force : difficult to judge; I would say correct force activates them; in comparison the buttons on the Qanba N1 and Q1 I own are more sensible (too sensible).

Clyde

Here comes my purely subjective report ;) about our yesterday's test session of the Mag-Stik Plus and the Sanwa JLF-TP-8YT-SK.

My friend and I played numerous games from many different genres. We noticed very quickly that most 4-way games couldn't be played satisfactorily with 8-way joysticks, up to completely unplayability. This wasn't a big deal with the Mag-Stik that can be switched to 4-way easily. The Sanwa, however, requires way more effort by removing its restrictor from below and reattaching it in its 4-way position.

That alone settled the test for me personally in favour of the Mag-Stik, because I want to play both 8-way and 4-way games on this single cabinet. But for anyone who doesn't care about that, I'll list our further discoveries, many of which are mostly a matter of taste:

The Mag-Stik is much more stiff than the Sanwa that's closer to the Zippyy in movability. I, personally, like the Mag-Stik's robust strength more. I know that there are stronger replacement springs available for the Sanwa, but that would only allure me if I didn't have the Mag-Stik as a working alternative.
The same goes for the deadzones: very small on the Mag-Stik, much wider on the Sanwa. Both are okay, the smaller deadzone may be better for fighting games, because of its faster actuation.
The Sanwa's microswitches are noticeably louder than those of the Mag-Stik. This wasn't an issue for us. I don't like that the Sanwa's switches are soldered to the stick, though, because they can't be replaced easily for whatever reason.
The Sanwa's single connection cable is much easier to install but less flexible as the usual cable tree. This shouldn't be an issue for most people except for very special wirings. The joystick encoder has to support this connector, though.
As mentioned in my opening post, the Mag-Stik requires much more effort and care to be installed, because you have to disassemble the whole 4/8-way mechanism to remove the entire shaft. I don't understand why the manufacturers didn't go for a removable top that most other joysticks have (including the Sanwa).

All in all, both the Mag-Stik Plus and the Sanwa JLF are very good joysticks. Which one is better for you personally depends heavily on your preferences and the respective setup. I'm happy with my two Mag-Stiks, because they meet my preferred haptics and let me play 4 and 8-way games alike with minimum hassle.

@BaviaanNL We didn't notice any directional problems in the 4-way mode of the Mag-Stik. Maybe this is an assembly issue again?

BaviaanNL

@clyde On both my MagStik's, the entire shaft can be removed b disassembling to the bush (before you get to the 4-8 way mechanism, in fact, I've never disassembled beyond the bush although feel that must be my next step as I'm still suffering directional issues, hopefully this will fix the issue as these sticks are keepers, I'm very impressed with them.

Clyde

@baviaannl If you removed all parts up to the bush, only the black actuator remains untouched. You could try to remove it, too, and put everything back together. Then you'd have done everything I did. As said before, you could try to turn the actuator 90° and see if the problem moves to another direction – if it remains at all.

edit: Does the problem occur with both of your Mag-Stiks? That would be a strange coincidence.

BaviaanNL

@clyde said in Open Joystick Talk:

@baviaannl If you removed all parts up to the bush, only the black actuator remains untouched. You could try to remove it, too, and put everything back together. Then you'd have done everything I did. As said before, you could try to turn the actuator 90° and see if the problem moves to another direction – if it remains at all.

edit: Does the problem occur with both of your Mag-Stiks? That would be a strange coincidence.

Do the switches need to be removed prior to actuator removal?

Player 2 MagStik is just fine, Player 1 works although you have to give it a slightly harder push in the right direction.

Another thing I can't figure is the 4/8 direction switching, I understand how it should work, pull to engage the shaft in to the position where you can simply turn to the position you like although sometimes, the shaft moves out of the gear (if the stick has been twisted) so you can't see where it is so you have to fiddle until it's back into place.

I was thinking that it shouldn't be able to move out of place, should there be something stopping this from happening?

Clyde

@baviaannl No, the switches don't need to be removed. The actuator may be caught behind their metal brackets, but you can free it by gently pushing them aside while slowly pulling it out.

As for switching, it's not rocket science, but requires a little patience and practise. It's really only this:

you'll have to pull up the shaft gently and turn it until you feel it snapping into the keyways and coming up slightly more. Only then, you turn it to switch.

It also helps to keep in mind the right switching direction: clockwise for 4-way, anticlockwise for 8-way. This way, you don't waste time and effort trying to switch in the wrong direction.

@baviaannl said in Open Joystick Talk:

I was thinking that it shouldn't be able to move out of place, should there be something stopping this from happening?

No, that's absolutely normal. The shaft turns freely when not pulled up. It may be like this to preserve the mechanism and/or prevent accidental switching in the heat of the moment. Pull it up gently, turn it until it locks upwards into the gear, then turn it slightly more powerful in the right direction. At first, it helped me to have my other hand at the lever to feel if it moved. You could also try that for practise, if your cabinet allows it.

edit: Oh, and make sure that the nut at the end of the shaft is tightened as much at possible. I experienced switching problems when that wasn't the case.

Clyde

@clyde said in Open Joystick Talk:

The Mag-Stik is much more stiff than the Sanwa that's closer to the Zippyy in movability. I, personally, like the Mag-Stik's robust strength more. I know that there are stronger replacement springs available for the Sanwa, but that would only allure me if I didn't have the Mag-Stik as a working alternative.

The Sanwa's microswitches are noticeably louder than those of the Mag-Stik. This wasn't an issue for us. I don't like that the Sanwa's switches are soldered to the stick, though, because they can't be replaced easily for whatever reason.

The Sanwa's single connection cable is much easier to install but less flexible as the usual cable tree. This shouldn't be an issue for most people except for very special wirings. The joystick encoder has to support this connector, though.

Now I've learned that there's another Sanwa model with a stronger spring, small to medium travel, microswitches that are not soldered, no single connection cable, a rotating 4/8-way restrictor plate (still screwed tight, though), and a Bat Top ex factory: Sanwa JLW-UM-8. Even the mounting plate seems to be different.

If I'd know that sooner, I'd have tested this model instead of the JLF, because it is closer to my preferences. It's amazing how rich and diverse (read: confusing) the joystick market is. :P It wouldn't have changed my choice of the Mag-Stik Plus for my upright cabinet, but it would've relativised or negated some of my complaints, and I may've kept the JLW for my Mayflash Fighting Sticks. But well, c'est la vie.

stoney66

@Clyde did you ever find a good adapter plate (the link from your post is dead) for the Mag Stik Plus? I have two Sanwa JLW-TM-8 in my cabinet but play mostly 80s games and a lot of them are 4 way. Finally getting tired of pulling the panel up to switch from 4/8 all the time. I just picked up the Mag Stik Plus (also because I wanted a shorter throw) and noticed the mounting plate is much smaller than my JLW but two holes seem to line up. Wasn't sure if two on one side would be strong enough to hold.

Sorry in advance for hi-jacking old post ;)