What is Video Game Preservation?

[Lurker]

Thank you for posting this discussion segment. I feel that it does a good job of demonstrating what is a core problem of the common stance of preservation that is missed.

I wrote a long an drawn out analogy then deleted it when I realized I don't need to ....read ...myself... type? whatever

My argument and belief has two main points.

1. Preservation is great but it is also pointless without access. Preserve the Mona Lisa in a box in a warehouse is pointless if no one can see it . What's the point of preserving a game if no-one gets to play it?
   a. A counter to content for free argument. Yes, I can see other media for free. I google Mona Lisa and there it is. It is a copy just like my rom but ya it's there right at my fingertips. I can drive the point home with more but will leave it at that for now.

2. I believe it is important to preserve the original and documentation, but it is also beneficial to the world, the medium and the content (content to include IP or subject matter here) to continue to build on explore and polish that product to the best state it can be.

I've been reading classics stories. Dracula, The Invisible Man, Original Peter Pan. They have all benefited from the polish and depth others have given them. The originals suck in comparison, but it is understandable as the original was created by effective one person or small group within a limited time frame. Those that came after were able to focus on polishing one specific dent or bug.

Now imagine if there was an accessible archive that had the original game as best preserved as possible and along with that a data base of revisions and the recommended best polished version of that game.

So in summary and to prevent myself from rambling on for pages;

Preservation without access by the public is pointless.

With the preservation of the original in place the evolution and refinement of content should also exist in parallel and should be just as accessible.

One more thought;
Libraries need books returned because duplicating the physical book is difficult.
Imagine that instead of a public Library every book had been digitized. The library would no long need to have a book returned. It would be the central repository in which you can download any book you need. It is happening now with audio books. Video games should and I imagine will eventually be no different.

[mediamogul]

@Lurker said in What is Video Game Preservation?:

Libraries need books returned because duplicating the physical book is difficult.

While physically duplicating a book on demand to all members is indeed beyond the scope and ability of any Library, it's not really the single-most reason books need to be returned. A Library's fundamental purpose is to loan, not to distribute. If they were to somehow create a system where all books could be printed for free on demand, the entire publishing industry would collapse. However, I do agree with you completely that preservation without access is indeed pointless.

We need some sort of system in place that can offer access to digital works that's much bigger in scale than just the standard DVD section of most libraries. Michigan's 'Computer and Video Game Archive' and initiatives like it are a step in the right direction, but I personally believe that granting full exemption of copyright laws to any entity, like what was done in the United States, is somewhat of a step too far. Still, that step shows that governments are at least recognizing the cultural importance of wider access, even if they're not quite sure how to best achieve it.

Retro-gamers actually have it pretty good here. All the games we love are digitally preserved in so many ways that there's no real danger of them ever being lost to time. What's interesting to consider though is that it might very well be the current generation of games that ultimately suffer that fate. Everything from the various app store games that disappear in the night, to AAA titles that require remote servers to operate will likely have a hard time being accessed in the future. Heck, even digital games that have special physical print runs often require patches from remote servers to function properly. I really hate to think of all these current masterpieces of interactive storytelling and entertainment disappearing, but in many and maybe even most cases, it's unavoidable.

[VictimRLSH]

smacks mediamogul with wet noodle

While this video is informative, it DOES mention several ROM sites offering copyrighted materials (even if they are sans Nintendo).

[mediamogul]

@VictimRLSH

Out of the two sites mentioned, one no longer carries ROMs at all and the other was said so quickly in passing that I missed it completely. While I have to admit that I personally don't see this as much of an issue, given the context and brevity, it would be hypocritical of me to let it remain here so I'll remove it.

[BobHarris]

@mediamogul I don't like this about the internet age either. Recently I imported the PS4 Dark souls trilogy compilation. They could have included the patches needed for every game, but instead you still have to download them.
But don't you think there are people at work preserving these patches too? Once you hack a PS4, it shouldn't be impossible to grab the patch off your PS4 right?
In the snes days I never imagined that one day all these games would be digitally available and that you can duplicate them as often as you desire.. so why would it be any different for this generation of consoles?

Once we don't get consoles anymore and all there is is streaming..that's when the real preservation problems will occur.

[A Former User]

@BobHarris We are assuming there are people who actually want to preserve this generation, at the moment I don't see this.
I'm sure there are games, previous gen as well, where the entire game is not on the Blu-Ray disc - you download a portion of it online.
The sad thing is, I don't see this generation of videogame players caring about preserving these games. I see this across forums, Youtube, social media, etc.. Most seem to have this "Why would I care about that" attitude. It's as if the 70s/80s/90s generation are the last generation to care. As long as there are retail games available, then we at least have a something to start - patches could be the major problem. Also, a hacked PS4 can't access the net via the normal channels, so it can't get patches. The same for Xbox One.

The future isn't looking bright, especially if games are streamed, or a portion sits on a remote server.

The knee-jerk reaction from the two biggest roms sites was sad, they didn't need to remove everything. Most of their roms came from long dead systems, and long gone companies. A lot of hard-to-find rare stuff was on one of them, and it doesn't exist on other sites.
This is why I hate the current copyright laws. They have been abused, torn apart, and molded into something that only benefits those with the power and money, it does not benefit society as a whole. I understand the need for it, but it was never intended for life. It was intended for a limited time, enough time, for a creator to make a profit on their works and have it protected for that time.

[VictimRLSH]

Yes, yet another reason for preservation and retrogaming, contemporary gaming is getting more and more broken.

[mediamogul]

@BobHarris

But don't you think there are people at work preserving these patches too? Once you hack a PS4, it shouldn't be impossible to grab the patch off your PS4 right?

As mentioned above, the ironic catch-22 is that hacking a PS4 actually prevents the system from accessing patches. Still, people are pretty crafty when it comes to these things, so you never know. I'd love to be surprise one day with a repository of patches made available. That still doesn't solve the issue of games requiring a server to connect and play, but there are a handful of examples where people have reverse engineered solutions. Unfortunately most will simply remain unplayable.

@John_RM_70

The sad thing is, I don't see this generation of videogame players caring about preserving these games.

I've noticed the same thing and it kills me that we're living in such a disposable culture. One example of this is with movies. At one time, a well produced, big budget movie would come along three or four times a year. Those movies resonated deeply and had a staying power that arguably has yet to fade. Now, it seems as though movies are brushed aside as soon as they're consumed. Granted, modern movies are in no danger of not being preserved, but when you apply that same attitude towards a medium that might very well be in danger, there's reason to be concerned.

[A Former User]

@mediamogul My mate's kids move onto the "latest" games like we move onto the next meal, they really don't go back to older games. Minecraft, is the only one I know that gets a lot of play. They do like retro consoles like the Nes, Snes.

I think movies are different. Movies never age, they're timeless. And future generations will always get interested in old movies, even black & white movies. Laurel & Hardy, Classic Basil Rathbone Sherlock Holmes, old black and white crime and detective movies, these are timeless. And, no-one ever watches them and thinks they look dated, or lack special effects. Sit the same people infront of a ZX81, Philips Videopac G7000, or Atari 2600, and you will get a much different reaction. Most could quite easily watch a 90min b/w Sherlock Holmes, yet probably wouldn't last 9 minutes with a ZX81 game. Games do age badly, especially those I mention, as well as more modern first-gen Playstation games, and early software-based PC 3D games . We all love them, but we are still a minority compared to today's generation.

This brings me onto the worrying bit. What happens when WE are long gone ? Is there going to be a future generation that cares about 70s,80s,90s, etc.. games ? Is all this effort, in vain ? Are we going to see even more draconian DRM and Copyright that will deny a future generation the freedoms we still have ?

What really bugs me about Nintendo, as a example, is they simply won't engage with anyone regarding their old roms. They won't have a online system where we can effectively buy a license for their old roms, legally. They get lots of money, we get a legal way to play their old games. But they are soooo damn stubborn, they simply don't care. So why should we ? I don't, and I know many more don't. I know many old games are a legal minefield, especially games with commercial music in them. But that doesn't mean that we should just bin them and forget about them, that would be regretful and nobody in the the future would ever get to play them, or even know about them. And thats really sad, to be honest. Once they're gone, they're really gone for good.

[mediamogul]

@John_RM_70 said in What is Video Game Preservation?:

I think movies are different. Movies never age, they're timeless... And, no-one ever watches them and thinks they look dated, or lack special effects.

I couldn't be more pleased to hear someone express that opinion, as I honestly enjoy movies from any era. I've got an extremely rare copy of the original 1925 cut of 'Phantom of the Opera' that I watched just last week. Unfortunately, having worked in media distribution, I can tell you that both silent and black and white movies have been tough sells for more modern audiences since really as long as any of us have been alive. By the time I became involved in the mid-nineties, Technicolor films were considered the cutoff line for marketability. Sadly, now that line can be estimated at anything past 1992, with the release of the Ron Howard film, 'Far and Away', where film quality plateaued to a certain extent and even now hasn't progressed much further.

...But wait, that couldn't possibly include such classics as 'Star Wars' though, could it? Unfortunately, more often than not, younger audiences indeed consider its special effects very dated and its pace to be slow and plodding. The latter is a shame, as 'Star Wars' solidified an increased pace in film that was considered the standard until much later releases such as 'Speed', which set the new norm. As an aside, an interesting fact about the effects of 'Star Wars' is that there's actually less special effect shots in its entirety than in 'Citizen Kane', a movie about newspaper tycoon and his predilection for novelty winter transportation.

Anyway, I could talk about movies all day, but getting back on topic, I believe there will be a parallel in the number of people who seek out, study and enjoy retro games that somewhat equals the number who do so with film. Once we're gone, that number will probably drop significantly, but there will always be those who will enjoy the history of it all, however few they may be.

[Clyde]

I just want to throw in the Computerspielemuseum (Computer Games Museum) in Berlin, Germany. It combines preservation with public access. If you ever happen to be in Berlin, I strongly recommend a visit to the museum.

[Lurker]

I would argue against "movies are timeless" sentiment. I think it is more so that there is a filter effect on all media that strains out over time the terrible and even some mediocre content with the remaining being the content that just hit the marks for endurance over time.

The electronic media grows so fast that we are able to witness its evolution into new forms within our life times. This can create a very existential worry.

Compare how long video games have been around ( Early 70s to now . We are approaching a mere 50 years. ) to how long printed page (limit it to recreational bound books) has been around. 50 years to multiple hundreds of years. It is hard to pin down what would mark the first recreational book and not count the early bible prints, so I feel safe to say 500 is with in reason if not shorting it a bit.

Imagine how many bad novels were lost never to be read again as no one over was going to try and keep a copy around for a century or more.

Go back further and think about how many poets other than Homer are known from the same time. Not the same era but the same life span as Homer.

I think every media is subject to similar cycles:

Media is difficult to produce or at status Quo

• entries are few and have little to compare to.

Change to media occurs:
Easier to produce
Easier to distribute
Other technological move forward in media

• More content is created and overall average quality goes down while some very good items arise.

Saturation occurs:

• lower quality content fades but is still present
  New Status quo is set and cycle repeats with next change.

Along with that cycle is the pairing of the content to time and the loss of mostly bad but also I would expect some good works, to the void of time such that we don't even know we lost them save for the fact our totality of works should be much larger if everything was kept.

With Movies and Video games we have a truncated version of that cycle as the technologies jumps happened much faster then those for books.

Books are easily over 500 years old (in the recreational context of this discussion)
Movies are a bit over 100 years old
Video Games, almost 50 year old

The entire history of video games exists within one lifetime and there are people alive today who clearly remember the birth of video games.

Imagine a group of people sitting around a table in 1955 discussing the preservation and access of every movie made. (I am using the 1905 Nickelodeon as my mark for simplicity). It kind of blows my mind because unlike them we have the means to do it and with little effort. What stops us is not the technological but the legal "F -U we want to make money" road blocks.

I am not discussing copyright because that is a whole different cluster of mess ...

Okay one thing,

Imagine if copyright over end product like a finished novel, movie or video game. Not the IP just the end product. Had a clear limit that, for commercial reasons had a factor around the profitability of continued sales of that product. Once that limit was reached the free distribution of that item was allowed.

A preservation project could exist that stored every book, movie, video game and song that exists and made available any end content that was past the copyright limit. It could actively gather and store new content with time stamps on when it can be available.

I even included the profit factor so a company can make it's money and drive new content but it can't hold a OG mario game because it "owns" mario. Sure you own Mario and can make your new Mario Multiverse or what ever level of scope you have reached but that original MarioBro game that you haven't sold copies of in decades, ya that belongs to the public now.

Alas... I think it is never to be. So instead while in this fantasy world I will eat chocolate and drink a soda and pretend that it isn't killing me in some way.

Wonders off...
"Oh look a unicorn pooping rainbows...that's nice..."

[A Former User]

@mediamogul Do you ever watch the Horror Channel, on Freeview ? They have some great movies, such as the Hammer Classics - which are never shown on terrestrial TV. I loved last week's Hammer movie - The Abominable Snowman . That movie knew it's limitations and worked with them to great effect.
A lot old b/w horror movies are far more scary than any modern movie - with it's special effects, and 4k res. Take "The Haunting" from 1963, this version is not only a far superior movie to the 1999 remake, it IS damn creepy and scary because the director - Robert Wise, knew exactly how to use the best of what he had. I recently watched this, late night, and my home cinema speakers up really loud. That thumping/banging sound, used in the original, went right through me - I had the hairs go up on my arms, at times.

The Thing, from 1982, superior in every way to that 2011 abomination. Just shows that you don't need CGI effects. The effects created by Rob Bottin and Stan Winston were simply mind blowing. This is one movie that defies what the poster above me said. This movie IS timeless. Those effects will never age like the 2011 version's will. In 50 years time, the 2011 version will look awful and dated. While the original 1982 version will still look amazing. And that awesome Ennio Morricone opening score was just fantastic - This will also never age, it's just perfect.

[mediamogul]

@John_RM_70 said in What is Video Game Preservation?:

Do you ever watch the Horror Channel, on Freeview ? They have some great movies, such as the Hammer Classics

I don't have that channel, but I'm almost always watching horror of some kind and I love the Hammer horror films in particular. I own all of their classic Universal monster adaptations and quite a few others. They were great at bending the horror genre in very unique ways and one of my favorites that does just that is 'Night Creatures', starring Peter Cushing that delivers an interesting take on the old Caribbean pirate legends of island phantoms. I also love how they focused their Frankenstein series around the many gruesome experiments of Doctor Frankenstein, rather than the original monster each time. I've never seen 'The Abominable Snowman', but I'll be sure to crack open a few cold ones and check it out this weekend.

The Thing, from 1982, superior in every way to that 2011 abomination.

John Carpneter's 1982 'The Thing' was actually a remake itself of 'The Thing from Another World', starring James Arness from 1951. The original is fantastic as well, having also inspired Ridley Scott's 'Alien', but I definitely prefer the 1982 film for all the reasons you describe, alongside the sheer anti-hero awesomeness of Kurt Russell. I actually have the Apple II chess software he's playing at the beginning of the movie installed on RetroPie. At one time, it was a very popular software package named 'Sargon II' and I've been tempted to feed it a glass of Scotch myself on more than one occasion.

[mediamogul]

@John_RM_70 said in What is Video Game Preservation?:

I loved last week's Hammer movie - The Abominable Snowman .

I ended up watching this last night and enjoyed it a lot. It reminded me of other really good expedition monster movies like 'King Kong' and 'The Creature from the Black Lagoon'. The story, pacing and performances were all top notch and the location photography was especially excellent. Good black and white cinematography isn't always the easiest to come by, even in its day. Peter Cushing was also great, as always. It's funny that he's almost exclusively known as Grand Moff Tarkin from his limited screen time in 'Star Wars' and not the 900+ leading roles he had in the Hammer films. Heck, he's even in one of the 'Hammer House of Horror' television episodes and, surprise surprise, it's easily one of the best of the series. Anyway, thanks for the recommendation. Be sure to check out 'Captain Clegg' (aka 'Night Creatures') if you ever get a chance. It's in color, but the story has some very unique elements that really set it apart.

[A Former User]

Did you catch the Horror Channel, last night ? - It is free, it's on Freeview channel 70.
They had the original Hammer "The Curse of Frankenstein (1957)". That was great. Acting was good. Next week it's Christopher Lee's movie that made him, "Dracula (1958)". I hope they show the follow-up to Curse of Frankenstein, as that was a good sequel.

Will check out Captain Clegg, thanks for that.
I really wish we had a Freeview channel that is dedicated to classic Sci-Fi, Horror, Detective. The closet we have is Talking Pictures TV - on channel 81. They show some great stuff, but way too many repeats.

[mediamogul]

@John_RM_70 said in What is Video Game Preservation?:

They had the original Hammer "The Curse of Frankenstein (1957)". That was great. Acting was good. Next week it's Christopher Lee's movie that made him, "Dracula (1958)".

I love the two series originals and 'The Revenge of Frankenstein' is definitely a great followup to 'Curse'. Most all of the movies from the two franchises are pretty good and have that great Hammer feel. A particular favorite of mine is 'Dracula Has Risen from the Grave'. I own them all except for 'Frankenstein and the Monster from Hell'. I thought about doing a marathon of my favorites over Halloween, but time got away from me. I'll have to check and see if I get the Horror Channel you mention. It sounds great.