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    Trying to sell a Custom Retropie powered case

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    • BuZzB
      BuZz administrators
      last edited by BuZz

      It is a breach of licences to include a pre-installed RetroPie image with a commercial product - even if you are "Giving away" RetroPie as an extra. This is because many Emulators included on the image have a non commercial clause in their licences. (eg all snes emulators, all fba emulators, genesis plus gx, the older versions of mame)

      https://retropie.org.uk/documentation/legal-contact/

      The image we provide is Raspbian Lite with RetroPie pre-installed. Some software included in the RetroPie image have non-commercial licences. Because of this selling a pre-installed RetroPie image is not legal – this includes “giving away” a pre-installed RetroPie with your commercial product. Including copyrighted games with RetroPie is also not allowed.

      If you are selling hardware that supports RetroPie you should provide a link to our site for your customers rather than including a RetroPie image with your product.

      To help us help you - please make sure you read the sticky topics before posting - https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/3/read-this-first

      J 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • J
        jamesbeat
        last edited by

        How are you able to offer that for $40? That's only $2 more than I paid for my Pi 3.
        I'm not familiar with etsy, so I guess I could be missing something.

        R 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • R
          Retropoint77 @jamesbeat
          last edited by

          @jamesbeat The $40 price is just for the case without the board. You would still need a Pi Board, Power adapter, controllers, bluetooth adapter, and microsd card. I guess I'll just try selling everything without the image. Couldn't I provide my custom image for free to download to complement my product? I wouldn't see why not.

          herb_fargusH J 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • herb_fargusH
            herb_fargus administrators @Retropoint77
            last edited by

            @Retropoint77 explain to me why you think it's a fair thing for you to repackage our work to supplement your profits

            If you read the documentation it will answer 99% of your questions: https://retropie.org.uk/docs/

            Also if you want a solution to your problems read this first: https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/3/read-this-first

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            • R
              Retropoint77 @herb_fargus
              last edited by Retropoint77

              @herb_fargus I am not trying to profit off of your work and I will not be providing an image with my case. If the image is free to download, why can't I make a configured image free to download? I am new to this stuff and not trying to steal anyones work. I have been learning RetroPie and the Pi hardware for almost 2 years and thought I could provide a useful piece of hardware to compliment RetroPie.

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              • J
                jamesbeat @Retropoint77
                last edited by jamesbeat

                @Retropoint77 said in Trying to sell a Custom Retropie powered case:

                @jamesbeat The $40 price is just for the case without the board. You would still need a Pi Board, Power adapter, controllers, bluetooth adapter, and microsd card. I guess I'll just try selling everything without the image. Couldn't I provide my custom image for free to download to complement my product? I wouldn't see why not.

                It doesn't say that in your listing:

                This is a complete Plug-and-play System. You just need to install RetroPie and upload your own games. Instructions on adding games are easy(see the dropbox link above). Verified working games I've played on this system include:

                How can it be a complete plug and play system if it's only a case?
                I'd reword that asap if I were you, or else you may get an extremely angry customer demanding a refund.

                Edit: it even lists this:

                • Raspberry Pi 3 Model B 1GB Ram
                  (overclocked with cooling fan and 3 chip heat sinks)

                Anyone reading that would reasonably believe that it is a complete system including The Pi 3 all set up ready to add roms and play.

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                • R
                  Retropoint77 @jamesbeat
                  last edited by

                  @jamesbeat I updated my listing. Thanks.

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                  • J
                    javiermartinez @BuZz
                    last edited by

                    @BuZz so it is possible to remove these packages with a "non commercial clause in their licenses" and offer a custom RetroPie?

                    Thanks,
                    Javier

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                    • Z
                      Zigurana
                      last edited by

                      @javiermartinez : I would be more in favor of adding a non-commercial license to the retropie core scripts, and be done with all this it once and for all...

                      Its a community - build project, there shouldn't be individuals cashing in on all that value.

                      If tetris has thought me anything, it's that errors pile up and that accomplishments dissappear.

                      J BuZzB 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                      • J
                        javiermartinez @Zigurana
                        last edited by

                        @Zigurana said in Trying to sell a Custom Retropie powered case:

                        @javiermartinez : I would be more in favor of adding a non-commercial license to the retropie core scripts, and be done with all this it once and for all...

                        Its a community - build project, there shouldn't be individuals cashing in on all that value.

                        I understand what you mean, but I can't understand what's the difference between offering to your clients a memory card with an image of Retropie/others or say to them to download the image and install it on the commercial hardware.
                        There are many commercial products using open source and the benefits are reciprocal. (routers, media players, etc)

                        It's only my opinion. :)

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                        • BuZzB
                          BuZz administrators
                          last edited by BuZz

                          I'm glad you mentioned routers - it's a good example - There have been many cases where router manufacturers have used GPL code, and broken the licence by not making their source available

                          https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL Enforcement Cases

                          media software is another good example. Kodi is being damaged by people selling it with addons designed to stream copyrighted content for free. Because of this Kodi was pulled from the Amazon Store for example - https://kodi.tv/kodi-available-on-google-play-not-on-amazon/

                          There is no reciprocal benefit here.

                          You can argue it all you want - but the emulator authors did not want their work sold, or even included with something that is sold. Without their work we wouldn't have the emulators we have now. Is it such a big deal to respect and adhere to their licensing terms ?

                          I would think the reason is a commercial product can be sold using their software as added value - and it's easy to say "you are only paying for the hardware" - but it's not that clear cut if the software adds value to the package.

                          To help us help you - please make sure you read the sticky topics before posting - https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/3/read-this-first

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                          • BuZzB
                            BuZz administrators
                            last edited by

                            In regards to emulators which have non profit clauses - many of them - including all snes emulators, genesis plus gx, all the older versions of mame, all the versions of fba.

                            And probably more.

                            To help us help you - please make sure you read the sticky topics before posting - https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/3/read-this-first

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • BuZzB
                              BuZz administrators @Zigurana
                              last edited by BuZz

                              @Zigurana said in Trying to sell a Custom Retropie powered case:

                              @javiermartinez : I would be more in favor of adding a non-commercial license to the retropie core scripts, and be done with all this it once and for all...

                              Its a community - build project, there shouldn't be individuals cashing in on all that value.

                              We used to have one - we switched to GPL as we realised we could not enforce it :(

                              To help us help you - please make sure you read the sticky topics before posting - https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/3/read-this-first

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • C
                                Concat
                                last edited by

                                It's not like the seller is hooped because he/she can't offer a custom retropie image. If that's what the business needs to stand out, then that seller should develop their own update script to make sure all the controls are correct and it's more plug and play.

                                To me, this isn't about fairness. I could go online and pick and choose the ones I don't personally see any issue with them offering a RetroPie image. There are examples where it's clearly not doing any harm, in my opinion. But it's not about our opinions. If you have a business, or if you are selling something, it's your responsibility to ensure you aren't opening yourself up to litigation.

                                I won't assume to know Buzz's personal opinion on the morality of it all, but I would assume that the RetroPie team has to take this stance in order to keep good faith with the license holders. As users, we should be mindful of that and not encourage this practice as well. I would think that good working relationships with the many players in the emulation world is vital to RetroPie's future.

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                                • J
                                  javiermartinez
                                  last edited by

                                  @Zigurana @BuZz @Concat thanks for your opinions and comments. Sometimes is very difficult to know how to act in the right way when starting a new business. I am sure that if a good product is offered, the buyer will make every effort to install the distribution they like.

                                  It is clear that to avoid licensing problems and to be respectful with the community of developers I should focus my business to the hardware part and leave the customer decide which distribution to use, even if it means fewer sales.

                                  Thanks,
                                  Javier

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                                  • J
                                    jamesbeat
                                    last edited by jamesbeat

                                    Here's another perspective:
                                    There's an old joke that half of all people are below average intellingence, and although it's a joke about statistics, its also true.

                                    Retropie on the Pi is ridiculously easy to set up and use, and there are loads of step by step tutorials and videos explaining exactly how to do it.
                                    We have a dedicated forum here for people without experience to ask experts for help with things not covered in the tutorials.

                                    Most people could set themselves up a retropie console if they tried.

                                    Selling a console with Retropie already installed is catering to those few people who know what Retropie is, but are too dumb or lazy to set it up for themselves.

                                    My question to you is, do you want these people as your customers?
                                    If they are stupid or lazy, do you want to be the poor sap who has set himself up to be technical support for these people?

                                    You know who they're going to complain to when they change the wrong setting or can't figure out how to get roms on the thing.

                                    Just sell the hardware to people who know what they're doing.
                                    You may be decreasing your pool of potential customers, but you will be avoiding those customers who would give you a headache or demand a refund.

                                    herb_fargusH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                    • herb_fargusH
                                      herb_fargus administrators @jamesbeat
                                      last edited by

                                      @jamesbeat not to beat the dead horse any more... but I have my cricket bat out so may as well. Anyways want to know who the customers go to when they need support? I'll give you a hint. It's not the seller- they are too busy laughing their way to the bank.

                                      If you read the documentation it will answer 99% of your questions: https://retropie.org.uk/docs/

                                      Also if you want a solution to your problems read this first: https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/3/read-this-first

                                      J 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                      • J
                                        jamesbeat @herb_fargus
                                        last edited by jamesbeat

                                        @herb_fargus said in Trying to sell a Custom Retropie powered case:

                                        @jamesbeat not to beat the dead horse any more... but I have my cricket bat out so may as well. Anyways want to know who the customers go to when they need support? I'll give you a hint. It's not the seller- they are too busy laughing their way to the bank.

                                        Oh, I'm sure they would come to you too, but I do have some experience in a similar field.
                                        Years ago, I used to have a small 'business' (actually just a hobby really) converting digital cameras to infrared.
                                        If you're interested in why, Google IR photography - it's pretty cool.

                                        Anyway, as I said, it was more like a hobby. I used to buy cameras, convert them, and then sell them for about $30 more than they cost me to make. The conversion took quite a while to do, and was very risky, so sometimes I would lose a camera to breakage.
                                        All in, I made about $20-$25 per camera.

                                        Now, most of my customers knew exactly what they wanted and were very pleased with the transaction, but it turned out that two of them didn't know how to use an IR camera.
                                        In fact, they didn't know how to use ANY camera.
                                        One of them emailed me every day for over a week, and the other was sending me several emails a day, sometimes even every hour or two.
                                        These were basic non-IR photography related questions about basic camera use, which was all in the manual I provided.
                                        To keep my 100% feedback, I had no choice but to pander to them.
                                        At one point, I even offered to refund the second guy's money just to get him to stop emailing me.

                                        In the end, it put me off doing it at all because the hassle just was not worth it for the small amount of money I was making.

                                        If you sell something, hardware or software, bear in mind that sooner or later, you're going to sell it to a half-wit, and they will expect you to provide support because you're the one who sold it to them.

                                        What I'm saying is, even if it wasn't a violation of the license agreement, I still wouldn't sell a system with Retropie installed, because it would probably be too much of a hassle.

                                        I say make your cases (they are very nice by the way) and leave the software side of things to the customer.

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                        • FloobF
                                          Floob
                                          last edited by

                                          Saw this posted recently on another forum

                                          What sort of price should I be looking at for Pi3 machine, with two controllers, memory card, hdmi cable and retro pie fully configured? Was looking on eBay and I really don't want to faff about building/setting up. Just want to put roms on it and play.

                                          I think that's an all too common sentiment and is why there is a market for pre-built (roms or not). Many buyers and sellers will care little about copyright (emulators and/or roms) which is a shame, but no doubt the reality of the situation.

                                          A not too dissimilar conversation is happening here:
                                          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37474595

                                          Please read the Docs before asking a new question.
                                          RetroPie Help Guides: https://goo.gl/3gcNsT

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                                          • F
                                            footwo @Floob
                                            last edited by

                                            @Floob said in Trying to sell a Custom Retropie powered case:

                                            What sort of price should I be looking at for Pi3 machine, with two controllers, memory card, hdmi cable and retro pie fully configured? Was looking on eBay and I really don't want to faff about building/setting up. Just want to put roms on it and play.

                                            I've made several consoles for friend's and relative's birthdays with a fully configured retropie setup that I've spent many hours perfecting and tweaking. I've had multiple colleagues and other buddies say they would definitely be willing to purchase these machines to avoid having to do any setup.

                                            I have to disagree with @jamesbeat sentiment that it's ridiculously easy to setup. It isn't if you want it to be as idiot proof and less prone to breaking/getting stuck as possible. There is most definitely a market for it.

                                            Hell I was thinking about hoping to sell them myself after being encouraged to, with the caveat that I don't care how many copies you make of the image, whether you give it to your friends, as I don't own it, I just spent a long time making it a little more consumer friendly. To my mind, that's the only thing I would be selling - cost of materials plus labour doing something that a large portion of people don't want to have to do, i.e. build parts, install, config, tweak, make nice. How is that any different from say, paying someone to build you a PC from various parts and then installing Windows on it, and then shipping it to you in a functional state?

                                            Maybe I'm just ignorant, but it seems like there's definitely a grey area there.

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