How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability
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@Twitch0815 said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
Don't use the default sticky adhesive that comes with them they provide virtually zero heat >transfer capabilities.
I don't know if that's completely true maybe they are not quite as good as a thermal epoxy. I've used the thermal tape (ordered a thermal sheet off eBay for a few dollars) with no issues. I use a MM sized ruler for the straight edge and razor to cut perfect sized squares for my heatsinks.
The main heatsink is definitely hot (official finger test ;) and with a fan I level off around 50C with all the overclock settings in place. Without anything I level off roughly around 70 to 72C. If the heatsinks come with thermal tape in place I have no issue using it.
By the way thanks for the link on the case it works really well and the extra room under the board that allows for a heatsink on the memory chip is a bonus.
I know some argue against using any heatsinks (especially the 1 and 2) but regardless of the merits I look the look and it really doesn't hurt anything. :)
I don't think these tape numbers where to bad but never as good as thermal grease. Grease just beats tape hands down. Also long term the tape is going to break down too. Tape is good for extreme high heat for short periods of time (hours-days) and low to moderate heat (weeks-months). I think usage per day would also be a factor. I have never had to replace the tape though. My typical usage completely outlasts the Pi life. As it looks like the Pi cycle is going to be yearly or so?
I guess for a full size desktop I would never think of using tape but for the Pi it just seems like a good fit.
Thermal Conductivity 0.60 W/m-K Thermal Impedance 0.48 (Degree C)-in²/W Thermal Impedance (metric) 3.1 (Degree C)-cm²/W -
^ Imo thermal epoxy is a bit overkill. I used Arctic MX-4 thermal paste for mine (what you used is fine also). Very easy to clean/remove if needed. With thermal epoxy they're "glued" together forever. And the temperature differences are negligible between epoxy and pastes/tape.
As far as the original adhesive on the heatsinks, it most definitely doesn't offer any heat transfer (on the Addicore 3-pack that most people seem to use, at least). So it's definitely in your best interest to strip it off and use some real thermal interface material.
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@2stick said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
As far as the original adhesive on the heatsinks, it most definitely doesn't offer any heat transfer (on the Addicore 3-pack that most people seem to use, at least). So it's definitely in your best interest to strip it off and use some real thermal interface material.
Yeah that's what I always do, strip the old off with a very thin plastic "putty knife" and apply a better quality tape. I agree it's quick and easy without much mess or cleanup.
Ok, I wondered if the epoxy was permanent. It's something I have never used. I think I like the idea of removable tape better. Not sure why the permanence of epoxy doesn't sit right with me. I try and give my old ones away keeping at least one from each gen.
In a perfect world the two surfaces would mate perfectly for the best conductivity and transfer of heat. But uneven CPU heat spreader caps & heatsinks, pits, micro-scratches, etc. is why thermal grease was invented. The less the better if it's a choice between direct metal on metal contact or thermal grease the direct contact should move heat better. Some heatsinks have springs to compensate for the even surface pressure. I've seen some even remove the CPU heat spreader cap to get direct contact with the die. The quality of the grease may gain you 1 or 2 degrees Celsius. It seems like you could go on and on.
The thought being the more direct surface contact between chip and heatsink with less tape or glue in between for adhesive and heat transfer the better. Instead of transferring heat through 3 "objects" it's only 2. With glue and tape there's no direct contact. You're counting on the conductivity qualities of the substance (being glue or tape) in between. Well possibly with glue you could squish out the excess and the glue would adhere to the vertical sides of the chips. Hopefully not to much that you encase the sides in glue.
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@2stick said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
As far as the original adhesive on the heatsinks, it most definitely doesn't offer any heat transfer
right, so it's a total heat insulator? someone call NASA!
the heat transfer is not optimal, but for those of us who don't want to spend $10 on cooling our $35 raspberry pi 3s, it's not some elaborate way of hotboxing your pi :P i ran a modest overclock at far lower temps than i got with no heatsink or overclock, ergo it's doing SOMETHING!
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@dankcushions said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
@2stick said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
As far as the original adhesive on the heatsinks, it most definitely doesn't offer any heat transfer
the heat transfer is not optimal, but for those of us who don't want to spend $10 on >cooling our $35 raspberry pi 3s.
I don't have a good thought for that. I waste way to much money on things I shouldn't and it doesn't make sense but I do enjoy it as a hobby! ;)
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@Twitch0815
Have you read this article about using ceramic heatsinks? -
@Rion said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
@Twitch0815
Have you read this article about using ceramic heatsinks?That's an interesting article and comments. It sounds like a fan made a huge difference regardless of heatsink. It seems they pushed the Pi3 much harder than 1 or 2. From his study it looks like under a full load it's almost mandatory to have some type of cooling or it will downclock.
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@Riverstorm said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
@Rion said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
@Twitch0815
Have you read this article about using ceramic heatsinks?That's an interesting article and comments. It sounds like a fan made a huge difference regardless of heatsink. It seems they pushed the Pi3 much harder than 1 or 2. From his study it looks like under a full load it's almost mandatory to have some type of cooling or it will downclock.
The question remains. Is Ceramic better then aluminium or Copper heatsinks?
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@Rion said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
The question remains. Is Ceramic better then aluminium or Copper heatsinks?
Oh, yeah, good question. I'm not sure. There didn't seem a definitive answer with variables of load, fan, air flow, channeled air flow, case or no case.
Overall I am not against being frivolous in my heatsink purchases but I definitely have a limit. As Dank said it's tough justifying $10 cooling solution for a $35 computer. I usually shoot for copper over aluminum if possible (copper is better if design is equal) but it seems so many are producing aluminum only now.
If ceramic heatsinks hit mass production and are easy to get a hold of I would try one. I know we are probably splitting hairs on some of conversation and articles but I find the topic interesting.
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@Riverstorm said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
@Rion said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
The question remains. Is Ceramic better then aluminium or Copper heatsinks?
Oh, yeah, good question. I'm not sure. There didn't seem a definitive answer with variables of load, fan, air flow, channeled air flow, case or no case.
Overall I am not against being frivolous in my heatsink purchases but I definitely have a limit. As Dank said it's tough justifying $10 cooling solution for a $35 computer. I usually shoot for copper over aluminum if possible (copper is better if design is equal) but it seems so many are producing aluminum only now.
If ceramic heatsinks hit mass production and are easy to get a hold of I would try one. I know we are probably splitting hairs on some of conversation and articles but I find the topic interesting.
Going to split some more then. :)
From my findings Ceramic Heatsinks from Farnell cost from 0.9 to 8.89 $..
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@Rion said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
From my findings Ceramic Heatsinks from Farnell cost from 0.9 to 8.89 $..
The price is definitely right. I usually wait and buy several things at once just to keep the shipping costs down. What's that saying "Necessity may be the mother of invention, but play is certainly the father." Something like that! :)
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@Riverstorm Ah, thanks - actually, it looks like this was configured - i was able to exit roms, I just wasn't getting notifications that it was saving state like it does in other emulators (yellow overlay)
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@Rion
Been reading and reading and reading, ceramic might in fact be better however with my current setup, Epoxy, Aluminum heatsinks, jtek acrylic case with active fan and the overclock I push the chip is cool to the touch. Honestly power and the architecture are the only things preventing clocking higher. If I can figure out how to continue pushing the overvolt to get gains in v3d_freq which is the only thing that needs to go up. Honestly there is so much cpu overhead even in n64 games with high texture packs enabled you do not need more then 1350 arm_freq what we need for NDS, Saturn, better dreamcast and 64 is more v3d processing power. Long run hopefully the pi 4 has a much improved upgraded video chip and 2GB of ram but with what we have now I cant get v3d up above 525. And I honestly do not think it is heat, but I am going to try an immersion cooling setup. Basically dunking the whole thing in mineral oil. There is some intresting studies I have read about how the pi is designed itself as a heatsink the pcb draws heat from the cpu down into the pcb bare board or something like that. But results are results I overclock the shit out of mine and my temp does not raise above 50C. -
@Twitch0815 My biggest problem with heat sinks is that there is not true mounting like on a PC motherboard, so you are at the mercy of whatever heat transfer compound you are using. The mineral oil both might not be a bad idea. Heck, distilled water with a radiator should work fine too. You are also hitting the limits of the RAM more than anything else. It seems like there just isn't much overhead for higher speed there.
In reality, you hit the nail on the head. The emulator coding is the bottleneck more than anything else. Perhaps, if the Videocore IV driver was open source, maybe some hardware acceleration could be done which would likely benefit all models of Pi.
I like your setup and honestly, if I wanted to push one, I would probably find a nice big low rpm, high volume fan to keep airflow moving over it somewhat quietly. Not sure how necessary the small heatsinks are at that point.
But hey, if you want to go for crazy, mount a temp probe over the chips and analyze with an external MCU that triggers a solenoid to give a shot of compressed air from a can at a certain threshold: Instant hypercooling.
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@Twitch0815 @mrbwa1 @Riverstorm
Found this video a couple of days ago and I must say this is the best solution so far for mounting a big Heat Spreader I have seen.When I do this modification I'm going to use a large ceramic heat spreader from farnell.
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@Twitch0815 , I'm the new guy here, but I want to say thank you for this effort you made.
I made a post asking for some 1-on-1 help (https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/1860/could-someone-check-my-work-if-i-m-overclocking-my-pi3-correctly-focusing-on-tweaking-pi-best-for-retropie) and then I found this thread and went ahead and changed up my boot/config to match your settings. I figured its easier to mimic someone who is digging pretty hard into raspi specifically for retropie, instead of general overclock settings. The change felt noticeable, but I still have an issue with retropie freezing after 10 minutes or so of any n64 game.
EDIT the 10ft 24awg cable WAS the cause of my freezing. I swapped in a 6ft cable with identical specs as the 10ft (I bought multiple cables to test) and the freezing went away.
I just have heatsinks (attached by thermal adhesive), and an open air case. Temps after 40 mins inside N64 was 56c. (I just exited retropie as fast as I could and input the temp command... so there is some variance, Im sure.) Temps without the overclock are about 42c, and temps with OC inside SNES are about 52c.I have 2 questions:
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Can these overclock settings (or do overclock settings at all) help weed out some "input lag" or "boggy" issues in NES, and SNES games?
(IE: Super Mario World for SNES, trying to do a quick jump/flick of fireballs/yoshi's tongue turns into a weird combination of backwards input normally found from the actual SNES, while also being performed at some exact lagged input that feels unnatural. River City Ransom for NES on the other hand, plays noticeably boggy in 2 player, compared to 1 player.) -
If an overclock can't do much good for NES/SNES, is there a command to tell raspi to NOT overclock unless it needs the extra power?
Thank you for any help, and again, your effort you put forward.
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@Rion That heatsink is just a simple southbridge heatsink. You can get them on eBay for a couple bucks with a 5v fan. I'm going to get one soon and see how far I can overclock it.
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I would like to keep this thread active, so I'm going to put some updated info:
Just to go ahead and make sure I had no loose ends and to simplify any doubts:
o I went ahead and swapped out the 16ft HDMI cable, and 6ft USB cable w/correct rated quality wall charger, to a 3ft HDMI cable, and an official Pi charger. I now use 10ft USB extension cables for my controllers instead. (I just dont think this was required- but it gives me peace of mind that everything HAS to be "correct" now.)
o I have yet to complete the case w/fan so for now I placed a small desk fan over the Pi. Temperatures do not rise above 40c while gaming.
o I am also starting to up the video resolution for some games to "CEA-4", while also upping frame buffer resolution to 960x720. (This doesn't work all the time.. but I'm just finding a few that are playing nice (no pun intended) with higher resolution. With that in mind, I'm assuming a "stock" CEA-1 choice with the following settings.)As for my overclock settings, the only changes I have from the original post are:
arm_freq=1450
over_voltage=6
v3d_freq=525
core_freq=550I put my over_voltage back to 6 since I recently changed my v3d & core freq. arm=1450 plays fine with voltage=5, so at some point I would like to lower it again, just to not be on the edge... Arm=1500 does NOT like voltage=5. I have yet to try 4.
Honestly, I haven't felt any improvements when I run arm=1500, and I also continue to get lockups after extensive play on some stuff with 1500. (This is why I bought an actual Pi charger, but that was not the problem/solution.) Frankly I dont even know if arm=1450 is worth it. The settings in the original post might be honestly the best you can get. (No matter what I do, track 2 on FzeroX, the high speed ring, just plays like total crap.)
I haven't even felt a difference with upping v3d and core even higher. Core at 600 just causes stutter big time on games that usually run fine.
I wish I knew enough myself to figure out if the solution is more overclock on GPU & RAM. -
Sorry to gravedig, but it seems this is still the most detailed thread on the subject of N64 optimizations.
I'm wondering if the mupen64 settings are still valid as of RetroPie 4.1? As well as Glide being the default plugin, and CEA-1 being the default resolution? Or should we be using something else?
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@2stick said in How to use Overclock and Mupen Core Options to significantly increase 64 game playability, quality, and stability:
Sorry to gravedig, but it seems this is still the most detailed thread on the subject of N64 optimizations.
I'm wondering if the mupen64 settings are still valid as of RetroPie 4.1? As well as Glide being the default plugin, and CEA-1 being the default resolution? Or should we be using something else?
no need to to the CEA-1 stuff anymore. resolutions are set to native (320x240) by both mupen64-glideN64 and lr-glupen64.
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