Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions

caver01

@Floob said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

You may find it easier to use the latest (or most recent you can find) mame romsets then build the set you need with clrmamepro.
You can do this with a "rollback" romset. The current one is about 8GB

But to be clear, to build a complete set this way, you need both--you need to start with a complete current set and you need the rollback set. You can't build earlier versions with just the 8GB rollback set because it only contains the ROMs that were changed/removed.

Riverstorm

@caver01 said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

@Floob said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

You may find it easier to use the latest (or most recent you can find) mame romsets then build the set you need with clrmamepro.
You can do this with a "rollback" romset. The current one is about 8GB

But to be clear, to build a complete set this way, you need both--you need to start with a complete current set and you need the rollback set. You can't build earlier versions with just the 8GB rollback set because it only contains the ROMs that were changed/removed.

That's an interesting thought.

I always keep my set up to date but in theory I think you would be fine as a rollback set is cumulative so the changes should be additions to the rollback and static. So as long as it's newer than the set your trying to rebuild and the target rebuild set is older than the current base set you're starting with.

The base ROM set would need to be complete. You could make assumptions that a missing file would be contained in the rollback set as it's the only rebuild source but that's probably not a good idea.

I am trying to think of an exception where it wouldn't work. I don't think the rollback contains added files so it would seem to stand you would need a current set or rely on luck it contains the needed additions. The base set you're working with would need all the new additions plus the rollback to upgrade. Downgrading a complete set should be a breeze as all changed files, renames and removals are in the rollback?

Floob

Yes, all removals are in the rollback set. The current roms remain in the current set, so you should be able to roll back to any set previous to your current version, (assuming your rollback set is also from your current version).

Or you can just throw as many romsets that you have at clrmamepro and tell it to rebuild from a given dat file and that may well sort 99% of it. Better to do it properly though :)

Riverstorm

@Floob said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

Yes, all removals are in the rollback set. The current roms remain in the current set, so you should be able to roll back to any set previous to your current version, (assuming your rollback set is also from your current version).

Or you can just throw as many romsets that you have at clrmamepro and tell it to rebuild from a given dat file and that may well sort 99% of it. Better to do it properly though :)

I agree. I was thinking another scenario that would work is if you have say the current MAME 0.175 rollback ROMs and a complete ROM 0.106 set you should be able to rollback to 0.78 with no issues.

They key being the rollback is "newer" and the starting base source set is a complete set.

caver01

@Riverstorm said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

I agree. I was thinking another scenario that would work is if you have say the current MAME 0.175 rollback ROMs and a complete ROM 0.106 set you should be able to rollback to 0.78 with no issues.

They key being the rollback is "newer" and the starting base source set is a complete set.

That's only true if you are rolling back from the base. It won't work 100% if you are rolling back from the rollback. In other words, if you have a rollback set that is => the base set you have, you can rollback to a set before your base. But you can't "meet in the middle" and roll forward from your base and back from a rollback. For example, say you have a complete .37b5, and a rollback from .175. You probably can't build a complete .106 because your starting base is too old.

If someone is reading this and wondering what the heck difference it makes--if you are looking for the minimum download to build a complete set (that you cannot find outright), you should be OK downloading any complete base set that is newer than the one you want to build, PLUS any complete rollback set that is the same or newer than your complete base set. This should let you rollback to every set older than your base set.

Riverstorm

@caver01 said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

@Riverstorm said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

I agree. I was thinking another scenario that would work is if you have say the current MAME 0.175 rollback ROMs and a complete ROM 0.106 set you should be able to rollback to 0.78 with no issues.

They key being the rollback is "newer" and the starting base source set is a complete set.

That's only true if you are rolling back from the base. It won't work 100% if you are rolling back from the rollback. In other words, if you have a rollback set that is => the base set you have, you can rollback to a set before your base. But you can't "meet in the middle" and roll forward from your base and back from a rollback. For example, say you have a complete .37b5, and a rollback from .175. You probably can't build a complete .106 because your starting base is too old.

If someone is reading this and wondering what the heck difference it makes--if you are looking for the minimum download to build a complete set (that you cannot find outright), you should be OK downloading any complete base set that is newer than the one you want to build, PLUS any complete rollback set that is the same or newer than your complete base set. This should let you rollback to every set older than your base set.

Exactly that's what I was trying to say in the earlier post. You can easily go backwards but not so easily forwards with a set as the rollback does have limitations.

On a side note if you converted a 0.175 set to 0.106, 0.78 or 0.37b5 you should be able to get back to 0.175 if you haven't deleted your backup directory by default all deletions/removals are saved there when using ClrMamePro. :)

caver01

@Riverstorm Yeah, your example was consistent with what I was saying. I just wanted to be clear about minimum requirements for someone reading this trying to build a specific set that they can't find.

I wish it wasn't so complicated, but I can appreciate how the MAME devs are leveraging existing ROM files across multiple .zip archives. Once you recognize the scale and scope of evolving ROMsets, this really is the most efficient way to maintain versions of these assets.

Riverstorm

@caver01 said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

@Riverstorm I just wanted to be clear about minimum requirements for someone reading this trying to build a specific set that they can't find.

Yeah if you wanted to cover all scenarios with RetroPie it would require 0.173 and the rollback due to lr-fba-next which is only 2 versions from what is current. The FBA emulators are really current.

dazza

@Meneer-Jansen MAME 0.37b11_Full romset GP2X_Wiz MAME 2.0") question please. New to pi. Does this romset work in mame4all by just inserting the zip files? Sorry I'm an absolute beginer. Do I have to change the mame version etc to get the set to work?

Meneer Jansen

@dazza said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

@Meneer-Jansen MAME 0.37b11_Full romset GP2X_Wiz MAME 2.0 question please. New to pi. Does this romset work in mame4all by just inserting the zip files? Sorry I'm an absolute beginer. Do I have to change the mame version etc to get the set to work?

This rom set works for me by placing individual roms on my Pi in the folder /home/pi/RetroPie/roms/mame-mame4all/. You do not have to copy the complete rom set to your Pi. Only downside of mame4all is that is does not hve the option to save games in the middle of playing them. I use AdvanceMame 0.94 for that on the Pi. That Mame version accepts the 0.37 rom versions sometimes. On this RetroPie wiki page you can see which Mame version accepts which rom set.

I don't mind answering newbe questions. Good luck! :-)

P.S. Ye 'olde mame 0.37 plays mainly the arcade games from the 70's and 80's. Newer games (FBA, Neo Geo) don't work. I use other emulators for those.

dankcushions

@Meneer-Jansen said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

You do not have to copy the complete rom set to your Pi. Only downside of mame4all is that is does not hve the option to save games in the middle of playing them.

lr-imame4all is libretro/retroarch, so does support savestates.

P.S. Ye 'olde mame 0.37 plays mainly the arcade games from the 70's and 80's. Newer games (FBA, Neo Geo) don't work. I use other emulators for those.

mame4all-pi seems to play all neogeo games according to the compatibility list. plenty from the 90s etc too. other, later sets are certainly broader, though.

dazza

@Meneer-Jansen Thank you for offering to answer my questions. If I ssh the whole lot to my Pi is there an easy shortcut to delete the rom which doesn't work as I go through them?

Meneer Jansen

@dazza said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

@Meneer-Jansen Thank you for offering to answer my questions. If I ssh the whole lot to my Pi is there an easy shortcut to delete the rom which doesn't work as I go through them?

I don't know exactly what you mean. Do you SSH to your Pi from a Linux, Windows or Apple computer?

I have the most experience w/ Linux PC's. I have a small Win 10 gadget too but not much experience with it. On Windows use the application WinSCP to connect from Win to Lin (i.e. my R. Pi). Open one tab for the Pi and another for 'localhost' (i.e. your Win machine). For WinSCP see: https://winscp.net/eng/download.php . I use it as a replacement for Windows' File Explorer when I transefer files. There is also sWiSH which integrates w/ the Win File Explorer but that one is read-only.

You only have to copy your roms/zip files to the directory /home/pi/RetroPie/roms/mame-mame4all/ on the SD card of your Pi. :-)

caver01

@dazza said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

@Meneer-Jansen Thank you for offering to answer my questions. If I ssh the whole lot to my Pi is there an easy shortcut to delete the rom which doesn't work as I go through them?

I think the answer is "no" there is not an easy shortcut way to tag or delete ROMs that you decide you don't want. For many reasons, it's probably better to only copy over the ones you DO want.

You don't waste space on your Pi with games you won't play
Faster boot times with fewer ROMs to scan
Faster moving through the menus
If you scrape metadata and/or images for the game lists, it is easier/faster with fewer.
If you build your own game lists, it is easier/faster with fewer.
Why maintain/manage all of the clones?
Who plays mah-jong?

dankcushions

you can delete roms within emulationstation. it's the 'delete' in the 'edit metadata' options menu of each rom.

caver01

@dankcushions said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

you can delete roms within emulationstation. it's the 'delete' in the 'edit metadata' options menu of each rom.

@dazza Well, there you go--maybe not bound to a key, but it's in there.

Riverstorm

@dankcushions said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

lr-imame4all is libretro/retroarch, so does support savestates.

I know it's off topic but a quick question. If it's to far off topic I can open a new post or problem ticket if that helps as it mostly relates to lr-mame2003 with a quick question on lr-imame4all.

I was doing some testing over the weekend and I noticed when I try to do a save state in lr-imame4all I get a message in the lower left stating save states aren't supported in this core or something to that effect. I can change slots but I can't save. I am running an older version of RetroPie 3.7 are save states for lr-imame4all recent?

Also is 4 players supported in lr-mame2003? I was able to use the Config Menu (Tab) to configure 4 joysticks under General (Input). All four sticks allowed input but once I started a game (Gauntlet) I could only get 1 player working. I have the update you walked me through on another thread that allows the history.dat to work properly. I am not sure on how to locate the build version though of lr-mame2003.

The other minor thing I noticed in lr-mame2003 is several management keys that just don't work like F4 (FPS) and DOUBLEQUOTE (On-screen Display), etc.

I've been testing things out in hopes to get fully on lr-mame2003 and the few games left in AdvMAME.

dankcushions

@Riverstorm said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

@dankcushions said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

lr-imame4all is libretro/retroarch, so does support savestates.

I know it's off topic but a quick question. If it's to far off topic I can open a new post or problem ticket if that helps as it mostly relates to lr-mame2003 with a quick question on lr-imame4all.

I was doing some testing over the weekend and I noticed when I try to do a save state in lr-imame4all I get a message in the lower left stating save states aren't supported in this core or something to that effect. I can change slots but I can't save. I am running an older version of RetroPie 3.7 are save states for lr-imame4all recent?

whoops, sorry! i assumed all RA cores would support save states, but apparently not! i've not tested lr-imame4all , but if you get that message i would suggest maybe logging an issue here: https://github.com/libretro/mame2000-libretro/issues - they definitely work in lr-mame2003 so i would hope it shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

Also is 4 players supported in lr-mame2003? I was able to use the Config Menu (Tab) to configure 4 joysticks under General (Input). All four sticks allowed input but once I started a game (Gauntlet) I could only get 1 player working.

whilst i can get 2 players working, i can't seem to get 3 or more. with either gauntlet or xmen 4 player (didn't try others). hmm, there's definitely a problem here! thanks for alerting me to it. i will look into this now - 4+ players is crucial!

The other minor thing I noticed in lr-mame2003 is several management keys that just don't work like F4 (FPS) and DOUBLEQUOTE (On-screen Display), etc.

FPS is supported in retroarch (select + retropadX to get to the RGUI, and then it's in video options), so that wouldn't need implementing. not sure what the on-screen display normally does in these older versions of MAME?

Riverstorm

@dankcushions said in Didn't fully understand the "logic" between ROMSET versions:

whoops, sorry! i assumed all RA cores would support save states, but apparently not! i've not tested lr-imame4all , but if you get that message i would suggest maybe logging an issue here: https://github.com/libretro/mame2000-libretro/issues - they definitely work in lr-mame2003 so i would hope it shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

Ok, I opened a ticket for save states.

I will check Retroarch for FPS. That's more like a handy feature than a needed one to see how a game performs.

Yes 4 player is a must! I grabbed all the 4 players games I could find. Even a bad one is fun sometimes with the right group of people! :)

The on-screen display is for overclock, volume, brighness, gamma, etc. Here's the list on cycle through for mame4all. Most of the options can be adjusted in other places I believe.

Volume 0db
YM-2151 #0 Ch1 (Lt) Volume 75%
YM-2151 #0 Ch1 (Rt) Volume 75%
uPD7759 #0 Volume 30%
uPD7759 #1 Volume 30%
Overclock CPU0 100%
Overclock CPU1 100%
Brightness 100%
Gamma 1.00

Toggles the On Screen Display. When the on-screen display is
visible, you can use the following keys to control it:

Up - select previous parameter to modify
Down - select next parameter to modify
Left - decrease the value of the selected parameter
Right - increase the value of the selected parameter
Enter - reset parameter value to its default
Control+Left - decrease the value by 10x
Shift+Left - decrease the value by 0.1x
Alt+Left - decrease the value by the smallest amount
Control+Right - increase the value by 10x
Shift+Right - increase the value by 0.1x
Alt+Right - increase the value by the smallest amount

If you are running with -debug, this key sends a ‘break’ in emulation.

dankcushions

4 player for sure works in the current mame2003 binaries, but I do have an issue with my latest changes (which weren't accepted yet anyway!). either way, I fixed the problem in my changes and will resubmit the PR for review soon.