mame2003-plus: hundreds of new games, improved input, features, new bugs - now with runahead support

grant2258

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

YXL
BAR

the
YXL
BAR
will never change thats why we only need to use mame button numbers to keep it simple .

you always map like this in ra mame will handle the button number mapping just visualise the number pattern you want

Riverstorm

@robertvb83 - Yeah I saw the comment of double assigning inputs. That's interesting. I use 5 and 6 extensively for page up/page down scrolling in emulators but I see how it may be useful.

@grant2258 - Yeah that makes sense to remap the MAME button inputs but keeping your physical layout in mind for panels.

robertvb83

@markwkidd said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

Specifically about Neo Geo: I think if you are using a control panel that has three buttons per row and you are emulating a system that had a four-button row, it's reasonable at that point to need a per-directory controls override, or a set of per-game overrides.

When it comes to remaps, one thing that is nice about RetroArch is that someone can post a standard 'Neo Geo to 6-Button' remap file that can be dropped in as a per-directory or per-game configuration file by other people.

What we're shooting for is a flexible enough set of baselines so that the majority of people can play the majority of games with their controller on the default settings. However if it starts to need an override of some kind for more than half of games, something has to be improved.

If the baseline set of layouts is in place -- to be determined -- then we could start thinking about "controller remap packs" which I have just invented as a term. I'm liking the sound of more and more.

well described! this is exactly what should be done. I still think that
345
123
is a valid baseline but on the other hand it is not too important! Yesterday I just did exactly what you described. I used 6 button as baseline and changed everything to the above scheme. then I saved a core input remapping file. and done! 99% of the games are correctly configured. No big deal. I further created a game specific input remapping file for sf2 and stonebal.

So on the one hand it is nice to have this preset subtypes but it only makes sense if it perfectly fits to your needs so you don't need a core remap file. but this is the only difference. so there are two ways to perfectness:

any subtype + core remap + per game remap for special games
matching subtype + per game remap for special games

in any case: quite easy

grant2258

@robertvb83 I understand that suits your needs. Maybe it will suit others too. I think riverstorm was happier with

456
123

Everyone will be different thats the point teh defaults are to cover most bases I would pick the same layout as riverstorm for a 6 button personally. I wouldnt want button 4 the second on the top row unless it was a gamepad.

robertvb83

@grant2258 would you prefer to play 4-button games on a 6-Button layout as
4
123

rather than
34
12
?
I would not have taken this into consideration, it feels unnatural for me but interesting, that's all just personal preferences. as said it doesn't really affect me much.
I am a little afraid that the majority will not easily come clean with the concept of core or game remap files, which once understood is a really comfortable way to get your collection configured quickly

grant2258

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@grant2258 would you prefer to play 4-button games on a 6-Button layout as
4
123

rather than
34
12
?
I would not have taken this into consideration, it feels unnatural for me but interesting, that's all just personal preferences. as said it doesn't really affect me much.
I am a little afraid that the majority will not easily come clean with the concept of core or game remap files, which once understood is a really comfortable way to get your collection configured quickly

Well if i only used gamepads which i rarely do I would have that memory muscle pattern.

Ive always used arcade type controls so my memory muscle patterns are towards that is all.

Like you said at the end of the day its a generic starting point and we cant please everyone no matter which one we choose.

Gamepad users will try get that same muscle memory pattern instead of an arcade style I do get where your coming from.

is the shape you seeking in your mind from gamepads

Riverstorm

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

well described! this is exactly what should be done. I still think that
345
123
is a valid baseline

I don't think it's a bad setup but you loose a very useful feature and that's the ability to page up/page down in you game emulators. This feature is by default buttons LR (potentially 56) in MAME.

If you have a large game list of 200 or 300 games it's handy to page down to the middle of the list vs. one game at a time that takes quite a bit longer. If you have over 1,000 it would be a nightmare to scroll down one game at a time.

I am not sure of the exact goal of subtypes but I think they are perfect for beginners or out of the box up and running. As you become more familiar with RA then remaps are a great way to tweak your controls to perfection.

I agree with Grant every input scheme/diagram for RA is 100% based on controllers and nothing around Arcade panels. I never really noticed until you pointed it out. I think your idea of leaving RA alone and remapping MAME is perfect. Then you're still rooted in RA but complete freedom with Plus to customize how you see fit.

Gamepad users will try get that same muscle memory pattern instead of an arcade style I do get where your coming from.

is the shape you seeking in your mind from gamepads

@robertvb83 - That IS the shape by default for gamepads. No need to seek it! :)

I think what Grant has been saying for weeks now is really we have two separate things. Arcade panels and gamepads. Gamepads have been established and pretty much standard but he's trying to address is mapping RA gamepad buttons to MAME buttons not taking for granted physical layout needs to be taken into account.

robertvb83

@riverstorm I think you mix up something! the subtype config we are talking about refers ONLY to ingame controls! this has nothing to do with controls within Emulationstation and scrolling through your list of games. This changes nothing to your controller layout anywhere outside a running game!

think of it like this. You define your Retropad in Emulationstation like

YXL
BAR

and you can use L and R for scrolling, then within Retroarch (after loading a game) this will be remapped to mame-buttons 1 to 6 in any order that you wish. so you can assign mame button 1 and 2 (e.g. shoot and jump) to whatever buttons you like. You never change YXRBAR you only change the assignment which physical button points to which mame button ingame function

grant2258

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@riverstorm I think you mix up something! the subtype config we are talking about refers ONLY to ingame controls! this has nothing to do with controls within Emulationstation and scrolling through your list of games. This changes nothing to your controller layout anywhere outside a running game!

think of it like this. You define your Retropad in Emulationstation like

YXL
BAR

and you can use L and R for scrolling, then within Retroarch (after loading a game) this will be remapped to mame-buttons 1 to 6 in any order that you wish. so you can assign mame button 1 and 2 (e.g. shoot and jump) to whatever buttons you like. You never change YXRBAR you only change the assignment which physical button points to which mame button ingame function

this is correct well it is now this is not the case for mame2003 though. Mark has made these changes.

the only question is the defaults set not being right
123
456

thats why you guys get to decide on a new new retropie_default_6 panel in a poll

it is important to keep in mind everything is redifineable you can explain to people why they cant play 6 button games with your default that why i could never pick that one myself

Riverstorm

@robertvb83 - Ooops yeah that's right ES has different controls defined elsewhere but I think the core issue is still the same mapping RA to MAME in a functional way depending on where you drill those holes! ;)

grant2258

@riverstorm

he has this layout

 3 4 5
_______
|o o o| 
|o o o|

 1 2 3
-------

best i can do with ascii

robertvb83

@riverstorm said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@robertvb83 - Ooops yeah that's right ES has different controls defined elsewhere but I think the core issue is still the same mapping RA to MAME in a functional way depending on where you drill those holes! ;)

sure but what I am saying you don't loose any functionality with
345
123

so I am counting on your vote for this as basis in the upcoming poll :-D

btw see my signature. its linked to my cabinet with pictures of my control panel layout

grant2258

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@riverstorm said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@robertvb83 - Ooops yeah that's right ES has different controls defined elsewhere but I think the core issue is still the same mapping RA to MAME in a functional way depending on where you drill those holes! ;)

sure but what I am saying you don't loose any functionality with
345
123

so I am counting on your vote for this as basis in the upcoming poll :-D

you do loose functionality for 6 button games again up people can vote for the retropie_choice thats the fairest and easiest way. If i was setting my panel up like that id just throw it out and just plug a gamepad in instead. The whole point is these panels can handle the configurations a gamepad cant thats why you need separate controls for sf2 and neogeo with a gamepad if you and most user want a gamepad emulated on panel i can live with that we still have the other panel default

robertvb83

@grant2258 nah, 6 button games are considered to be manual configured as we all like to comfortably rest our palms and use bottom row primarily.
456
123
is also not feasible for 6 button games, you will need
123
456
so there is a clear advantage for
345
123

I feel a little tired, too much has been said about this more-complex-than-I-ever-thought topic

grant2258

@robertvb83

for you in gamepad world this works
345
123
i would never use that on a 6 panel set up i would rebin straight away
to
123
456
or
456
123

i do understand you want a gamepad shape. i want aracde shapes we can support both if people want panel shaped like a snes pad they can vote for it is just not for me is all im saying your views are as valid as mine it personal choice

Riverstorm

@grant2258 - I don't think the ASCII is displaying correctly.

sure but what I am saying you don't loose any functionality with

345

123

so I am counting on your vote for this as basis in the upcoming poll :-D

Ask not what MAME can do for you but what you can do for MAME! I need your vote! When I see that layout it reminds me of a hybrid panel/controller. When the goal is a panel layout.

Just to understand better though what games do you play with 34 above 12?

When I map NES, SNES, Atari, etc. I do use that layout with a core change in that emulator. I am thinking strictly of MAME here. I am not sure what to think of using 3 twice and dumping button 6 altogether.

I think over 90%? possibly 95%? don't use 6 buttons so 456 123 seems a better fit to me mostly and remap that little percentage as 123 456 for 6 button games. :)

grant2258

I would really like you guys to submit a panel 8 layout as well that you would use. For more choice on the poll

grant2258

@grant2258 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

I would really like you guys to submit a panel 8 layout as well that you would use. For more choice on the poll

im guessing robert will be or something similar it nice to have alternative ideas
3456
1234

Riverstorm

@grant2258 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

I would really like you guys to submit a panel 8 layout as well that you would use. For more choice on the poll

Shoot! I have 2 panels and 1 mini arcade cabinet all are 6 buttons. I haven't even gave thought to 8. I wish I wold have though so I could cover Neo-Geo games as 1234. :)

I am honestly ok with any setup but for some reason dumping a button altogether and dual binding another seems a bit "different". I can't think of a single arcade game that stacks 34 above 12 in an arcade panel layout but then again there's 1,000's.

robertvb83

@riverstorm said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@grant2258 - I don't think the ASCII is displaying correctly.

Just to understand better though what games do you play with 34 above 12?

ONLY 4 Button games! if I had 8 buttons I would use
5678
1234

because top row is irrelevant there are no games with 5 buttons (maybe a handful not in my interest)

I would still need to do 6 button custom to fit to sf2
1237
4568