[mame2003/-plus] Removing individual per-game bindings via Tab menu

Clyde

@grant2258 said in [mame2003/-plus] Removing individual per-game bindings via Tab menu:

can you give me a real life scenario when this would be needed

Any time I don't want a binding in a particular game, but keep it in all others. For example, games with special dual-stick controls like Battle Zone, Assault, and Vindicators require extensive re-bindings. Besides, it is the behaviour in modern MAME versions, so the MAME developers seem to see the need of it, too.

That said, I think your issue doesn't reflect our request correctly (no offense, just noting). It doesn't have to be the UI Cancel key, it would just equal modern MAME that way = more consistency. But at least for me (and I think for @Riverstorm, too) Del without Enter beforehand would be fine – also in conformity to modern MAME.

But even if you change the UI Cancel key to the modern behaviour, you could still leave the double Esc to reset the binding to default, like it already is now. So, no loss there. (Alas, I don't know how how modern MAME handles restoration to default.)

The defaults are fine as they are and shouldn't be needed to be changed to adjusted for single games. That's what the this game settings are for.

Thanks for taking your time with our request, although we struggle to understand each others preferences. But what isn't understood can be explained, so no problem on my side.

(I am also struggling to keep up with your post edits while I'm writing mine. But you seem to have stopped, so I'll send now. 😊 )

grant2258

the update was for ipac users this is a completly new issue that @Riverstorm brought up. Joystick rightup ect isint set to anything in normal mame it is for us

grant2258

im check latest mame and see whats going on and get back to you

Clyde

@grant2258 Again, thanks. I'm off to the gym now anyway.

grant2258

this point is still moot you can change to anything you like. Mame current infact does set it to none but I dont see how you get the defaults back in mame current. I still need a reason in real life for none to be set still haven't got that part yet. All i have see is mame current does it

grant2258

seen

Riverstorm

I do agree with @Clyde on how he is explaining it perfectly. I can't add much to it because It's written well already. It seems your focus/questions change and it's hard to follow the discussion. Maybe a bit of run around.

To try and simplify. He gave a good use scenario. My thought is why not implement the "new" or "existing" feature if it's a reasonable code change but if you feel it's not, that's ok too. Nothing we can do there as end users.

You keep referring to an iPAC but alas I keep telling you any emulated keyboard device, input encoders, like an iPAC, Xin-mo, etc. Even a regular keyboard qualifies. All these devices emulate keyboards, this is not an iPAC-centric/exclusice change. To be honest I'm not sure what your iPAC fix is supposed to address even.

People with other devices are going to skip what you write because of the title and think it's non-applicable for their device. Your fix title needs to cover a broader scope of devices. Anyway call it what you will but things like this that drag out for weeks for a simple change and I get lost in circular conversation.

I am fine with how it was. Focus mode works well but you keep throwing iPAC fixes in my lap or things not asked. It feels a bit the same here with @Clyde. It is @hhromic that would like the old way. I was just trying to help him on Friday. Anyway I am used to these type of discussions with you so I'm not sure what else I could add to help clarify what he already has done very well.

I like @Clydes suggestion to leave esc/esc in place but add functionality similar to current MAME to set fields to NONE. You said you don't use it much or at all so you might need to trust folks that do use it regularly. If you're testing scenarios and different configurations, setting a field to nul or none seems fairly reasonable option feature yes? If it's good enough for current MAME, it's good enough for me!

I guess how you wish to proceed is up to you, as you have implemented all of these recent changes yourself so thanks for those.

grant2258

@Riverstorm the code change is simple enough ive already done it and tested it. I just cant find a case scenario for setting this to none in real life. All I can so is add it as a core option for people that want the default binds to come back in this case scenario

grant2258

the only pull request did change the ipac keyboard setting to retropad only you changed the topic to the tab menu not me

Riverstorm

Current MAME behavior is double delete sets a field to NONE or pressing Enter and ESC once toggles between NONE and default. If it's set to default it will change to NONE or if it's set to NONE it will change to default.

Debating the validity of such a feature seems a mute point as we all have different needs/wants and there's more than one way to accomplish goals. It's great to have options. If that functionality behavior is simple to code I think it it's reasonable. It's up to you.

grant2258

well ask mark and arcadez ifi had a real life case scenario i would just do it right now i just need one example that its needed beyond mame current does it.

grant2258

there is a github issue make the case there it isint my choice to make alone @Riverstorm

hhromic

@Riverstorm said in [mame2003/-plus] Removing individual per-game bindings via Tab menu:

It is @hhromic that would like the old way. I was just trying to help him on Friday.

Thanks for the help the other day, indeed I could map my keys using the internal TAB menu with your instructions/explanations and was very useful.

I want to make clear that indeed my problem was the reception of double-input because the core was listening to both, RA and raw keyboard at the same time and I didn't know how to remap internally. The new solution from @grant2258 seems to bring back the input_interface option that allows to choose which input system you want (retroarch or mame), hence no crippling of advanced users of the internal TAB menu.

For me, using RA's input system is sufficient and easier to remap, hence having this choice of input system is good. More advanced users do not need to use RA if they don't want and can still use the more advanced internal keyboard input system.

Riverstorm

@hhromic - sorry, that was not meant to put you on the spot at all. I'm glad you were able to find a workaround. I guess I don't see any point further pursuing as an optional feature. Grant thanks for taking a look.

Clyde

@Riverstorm said in [mame2003/-plus] Removing individual per-game bindings via Tab menu:

Current MAME behavior is double delete sets a field to NONE or pressing Enter and ESC once toggles between NONE and default. If it's set to default it will change to NONE or if it's set to NONE it will change to default.

Ah, I didn't notice that while testing the binding behaviour in MAME 0.185, but you are right: Esc after Enter toggles a binding between none and default. Thanks for clarifying that.

@grant2258 said in [mame2003/-plus] Removing individual per-game bindings via Tab menu:

well ask mark and arcadez ifi had a real life case scenario i would just do it right now i just need one example that its needed beyond mame current does it.

Well, I gave you three examples of games that need heavy re-binding to work with normal sticks (or one stick for dual-stick games for that matter). Of course I could use any key as a placeholder for none, but I like my bindings to be clear and self-explaining. Any placeholder isn't as clear about its meaning of "none" than none itself, especially some time after setting it, when the memory about its meaning is long since gone.

Beyond that, I concur with @Riverstorm. If statements from long-time MAME users like us that we see usefulness in this feature aren't enough for you, it's regrettable but fine insofar as it is your choice what to do with your free time, and we are in absolutely no position to demand anything from you. But I consider it moot to think up more examples on the spur of the moment that may or may not meet your seemingly quite high requirements for "real life cases", I'm afraid.

edit: typo

grant2258

you guys can take it up with the team i have posted the code that will set it to none its up to the team if they want this or not. I have never ever once in my life had to set a key to none.

dual joysticks are completely different from normal joysticks they are set as left/right.

anyway im not saying no I just cant myself fathum any reason to set a input mame needs to none.

https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-plus-libretro/issues/451

+maps this to the rstick buy to the analog rights stick and buttons, there is also an option to set it dual joysticks on arcade cabs

edit

Clyde

@grant2258 said in [mame2003/-plus] Removing individual per-game bindings via Tab menu:

you guys can take it up with the team i have posted the code that will set it to none its up to the team if they want this or not. I have never ever once in my life had to set a key to none.

And yet, you hear from us that we did. Thanks for posting the code.

dual joysticks are completely different from normal joysticks they are set as left/right.

Alas, it isn't as simple as that with those games in MAME. In Assault, for example, there are normal bindings P1 Up, P1 Down etc. next to P1 Up/Right etc. who interfere in some control schemes. The normal directional bindings have to be removed for some schemes to work like 1-stick mappings. This is one of the real use cases where none would be ideal and more elegant than dummy keys.

anyway im not saying no I just cant myself fathum any reason to set a input mame needs to none.

And yet we do. This is the circular conversation we are locked in that @Riverstorm mentioned.

Again, thanks for posting the code.

grant2258

you havent mentioned anything in particluar just they need rebinds

Any time I don't want a binding in a particular game, but keep it in all others. For example, games with special dual-stick controls like Battle Zone, Assault, and Vindicators require extensive re-bindings. Besides, it is the behaviour in modern MAME versions, so the MAME developers seem to see the need of it, too.

you can rebind a input. what has to be set to none on these games ? if I get clarification ill put a pull req in with a reason

Riverstorm

@grant2258 - I've watched you implement several features with zero input from the "team". I guess why now, why all of sudden did it become a joint matter when half the code changes you do is of your own accord.

Maybe folks have a custom cab and they want to nul keys to keep them out of the way for Robotron, Crazy Climber, Smash T.V., Total Carnage, etc. Maybe they repurpose a key and nul it out in certain games.

So you can't think of a single scenario? None that would be useful? You know literally you can not ever set a key to nul in Plus, even if you want to, literally unless you set all games to nul from Input (general) and inherit down. Even if you want to test something. I guess, yeah, ok...

The part the puzzles me is you have the code completed and it only strengthens the core with more options and multiple ways to clear fields but you seem to dangle it like a carrot. I struggle with the logic here. I'm not sure if you want folks to massage or beg the feature from you but I agree with @Clyde everyone's going to always come up a few inches to short using your yard stick for reasons why this would be a useful feature.

I don't understand but respect your decision, time and consideration for this feature and it's ok you chose not to move forward after coding it. I guess I was just curious why this feature is special and needs full approval from the team and the other half of the time you're the only guy on the team making decisions!

markwkidd

To clarify the decision-making process, only arcadez, twinaphex, and myself can commit new code to mame2003-plus. Nothing makes it in without being looked at by at least one of us. There isn't a strict decision making process between the three maintainers but we do coordinate on important questions or contested opinions.

Grant is one of if not the most prolific contributor so he has a lot of credibility with all three of us.

For myself I am aware that I don't have near the depth of knowledge about the games and their control schemes as the rest of you. Because it seems like communication isn't going great here, I will look up these games, reread what's been posted, and see if I can get this scenario in my head.

My primitive understanding at the moment from reading this thread is that there might be a game with a control that users don't ever want to use out of preference. By setting the control to None, you can avoid accidentally triggering the control in-game.

I did notice that joystick directions and dual-joystick games were also mentioned. If I understand this, then there are some idiosyncracies within specific games that can cause problems when input is registered certain ways. That really sounds like a bug, or at least a bad default mapping, but I realize I'm rusty on dual joystick games.

I will refresh myself on those dual joystick control schemes (shouldn't be too hard -- I was up to date on them in the Spring) so I can also communicate better about that. Give me a day or two if you will.