Spontaneous left/right movements in everything

[simonster]

Because the power usage of a Raspberry Pi is very much linked to activity, it is quite plausible to have different power draw in different installations. Even simple things such as the SD card read/write increase the power load massively. Equally, each emulator actually has its own effect on power draw of the Pi when running, increased higher by using shaders in Retroarch, especially those that apply geometry such as barrel distortion.

I still don't understand why people don't buy the official power adapter, and use a mobile phone adapter expecting it to work. That's like buying a new gaming computer without a PSU because you've got an old 250W PSU in your garage and then wondering why your NVidia graphics card isn't working properly.

The official power adapter is priced at around £8 from stockists in the UK. If don't think this is overpriced, especially compared to the plethora of tablet PSUs which unless you buy a Chinese knock-off one (really, don't do that) are going to set you back far more money.

Back to the issue at hand, if you open an SSH prompt and run a jstest, whilst using the Pi can you see the ghost inputs in the console?

[Capeman]

@nazo said in Spontaneous left/right movements in everything:

EDIT: I will not respond to "any power supply that isn't the official overpriced one is automatically the cause of any problem you might ever have" style posts. It is a good power supply.

You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar, my friend. Just remember that when you show a negative attitude toward strangers who waste their free time trying to help you.

[mediamogul]

@capeman

That's good advice, but I doubt he'll respond to any "vinegar that isn't overpriced honey is automatically the cause of any problem you might ever have" style posts.

[nazo]

Just to nip this entire derailing in the bud, I tested the power supply's output. I didn't have the patience to wire up a current meter test, but voltage is easy enough. During startup I saw it around 4.99V most of the time, dropping to 4.98V for a split second during heaviest load. Then in the menu it stayed rock-solid on 5.00V most of the time until it had been idling for quite a while at which point it jumped up to a whopping 5.01V fairly stable (still dropping to 5.00V roughly half of the time for a while before it eventually settled on 5.01V, so maybe really closer to 5.005, but my multimeter only goes to the second decimal point.) When the screen dimmed after a long while of idling it jumped up to 5.02V. That's a range of +/- 0.4%. I consider this to be within the 10% most people consider an acceptable tolerance (though my rule is 5%.) The voltage did not budge at all when it finally picked up a "ghost" input.

The power supply is neither underutilized nor insufficient. Which I pretty well already knew. This one has been quite reliable for a long time in a lot of applications. BTW, one thing I think you missed is that it's doing this in the menus. That means while idling. So even if the power supply were unable to keep up during heavy use it wouldn't have the same problem idling in a menu.

Actually, I've had a chance to test it on another RPi3 using a filesystem image. No "ghosting" on the other. I will be comparing the hardware differences between them next.

As for the vinegar, I stated already it wasn't that and I wanted to diagnose the other possibilities. At the very minimum people could have humored me and looked into the other possibilities somewhat instead of repeatedly insisting it was 100% guaranteed to be that. BTW, flies like balsamic vinegar much more than honey.

[Darksavior]

Beat me to it. I was going to suggest testing different retropie builds. That would prove an update introduced the ghosting.

[Capeman]

@nazo Actually by testing on another Pi3, you may have inadvertently stumbled onto something. There are 2 different manufacturing facilities that produce raspberry pi boards. One is in the UK and the other is out of China. There have been many discussions about the differences in the quality and it's sometimes almost obvious to tell the difference when you see a board from each facility side by side, I have definitely run across both. Might be worth checking out your boards and seeing if they differ in components (easy to spot with the large parts like USB and hdmi connectors). If the ghosting is related to the board that would be good to know in the future. Kind of an outlandish thought, but this ghosting issue has been been around for a long time and there is literally no definitive solution.

**Edited for accuracy, i got a beer or 2 in me.

[nazo]

Yeah, something like that may be a possibility. I will be swapping things around and see what happens momentarily. The second one is in a hard to open case though.

@darksavior said in Spontaneous left/right movements in everything:

Beat me to it. I was going to suggest testing different retropie builds.

Here's the funny thing. Same build. It was a filesystem image. I'm going to have to test the two hardware components -- the RPi 3 itself, and the DAC+ addon. The problem is, either one, if it's a 100% hardware issue, is going to be a huge problem for me. The other RPi3 isn't mine and I'm pretty broke atm. The DAC+ I consider non-optional (ask an audiophile about the difference between this and even cheap USB dongles. I have a Fiio E18K that is comparable -- surely better even -- but it's thoroughly dedicated to another task and obviously I can't buy another right now) so if it's it I need to figure out why it's doing it and somehow fix that if it is at all possible without digging into source code or something.

My suspicion is the DAC+. I believe it uses some GPIO functionality. And RetroPie explicitly supports some of the GPIO addons for retro gamepad adapters.

EDIT: The one without the ghosting says "Made in PRC" and has a darker PCB with black plastic on the ribbon connectors. The one I've been using says "Made in UK" and has a lighter PCD with white plastic on the ribbon connectors. I had considered the darker one to be inferior because the TRRS connector has some bit of oxidation or some sort of stain (but I'm not using that analog connection anyway.) I'll test the actual hardware and see what happens.

[Capeman]

PRC = Peoples Republic of China. Which strikes me as odd, because i always thought the pi's with the black ribbon cable connectors looked to be made to higher quality standards than the white connector versions. I would have expected the UK to be the better product, but the versions with the white connectors sometimes have crooked connectors that just look cheaper to me.

I just checked, the one i use, which was ordered from Element14, appears to be the PRC one also. From what I've read is the ones from E14 were better built.

Strikes me as odd that the china version would be superior, but, i guess every major tech company including apple and samsung manufacture in china, so i guess the quality can be pretty good if the price is right.

[nazo]

I'm not seeing many physical differences between them to compare. I actually said I thought that one initially looked inferior because it actually had oxidation on the TRRS connector which striked me as meaning not using a very good alloy (typically they're at least nickel plated these days.) However, I don't know what exactly it is because it doesn't really look exactly like normal rust. It's almost more of an inconsistent brown stain. In fact, it sort of looks like the coffee stains on my coffee press. The metal on the TRRS connector on the UK board is clean and shiny.

Anyway, after I'm done with this test I'll post images. Interestingly enough with the DAC+ plugged into the PRC board I'm not getting ghosting, but, I forgot to switch memory cards, so it's not actually initialized or being used at the moment and the system is using the built-in sound. Honestly, there are several variables and it takes a long time to test since all I can do is just let it sit there a while and see what happens, so this is a bit frustrating. What I can say though is that before when I ran jstest --event I saw a lot more coming up before I switched things around, so right now it seems to be consistent with something in this current setup being "right" and something on the previous setup being "wrong."

[nazo]

Well... You may be right. I'll be... So here's the thing. I remember now that I actually did switch the two boards a while back. I was having troubles with the power connector on the PRC board being looser (though both seem to be pretty bad and prone to momentary power loss from just a very minor bump of the cord, the UK one was a bit better in that respect and thus I went with it.) I didn't think it made any difference since they keep their's velcroed to the back of the TV and I have to keep mine loose and closer to my speaker amplifier. I performed another test, swapping the memory card and leaving the DAC+ in, running everything from the PRC board and zero ghosting -- unlike what I had with the exact same configuration on the UK board. It just never even occurred to me that there could be actual differences between the boards.

So I guess it must have something to do with the USB handling on the UK board. In fact, this might explain how a powered USB hub could make a difference for anyone if maybe it's dropping power too low or something (perhaps it doesn't like devices that simply don't use much. As I said, this gamepad likely uses exceptionally little power. Less than the wireless keyboard/mouse remote thing surely. One of these days I need to rig up an in-line USB current meter. Some day.) EDIT: As far as quality control questions go, I have to say, the UK board looks like they left bare copper exposed to me. Note how dark many things like the run connectors are. They're obviously not gold-plated as with the PRC board, but if it is copper it has oxidized a fair bit (which perhaps could mean it's affecting the actual lines further down if it has spread.) If it's something else I've never really seen a metal of quite that particular color before personally.

I'll do some more testing and give it more time, but so far I should have seen quite a few events show up in jstest by now.

BTW, I got curious and dipped a q-tip in alcohol. Most of the brown stuff came right off with no real scrubbing. Clearly not oxidation. I just never bothered with it before since I consider the analog output on the RPi to be too awful to use in anything less than an emergency.

EDIT: Now the UK board isn't showing the ghosting either. I guess there is a variable here I may be missing. I may have to test both over a MUCH longer period of time...

PS. Before anyone starts, no I'm not overclocking. The heatsinks are just there because I like all of my hardware to last as long as possible. If I still have a use for this RPi3 in ten years, I want it 100% working. Neither has ever been overclocked and if Raspberry Pi themselves checked them the flag will not have been changed (or does it still do a flag? Eh, if it did it would still say zero or whatever.)

[nazo]

Well, I'm really having a lot of troubles pinning this down. For a really long time the PRC one produced zero ghost inputs. Then both stopped producing ghost inputs. Now both do both with and without the DAC+ addon. I finally found another gamepad to test with (one I hate, unfortunately) and am running jstest with it. So far zero ghost inputs with it. Meanwhile, now that I know about this jstest, I've rebooted into Linux on my PC and am running jstest on it after installing the requisite joystick package. So far zero ghosting on the PC. I went ahead and plugged in the other iBuffalo and have jstest in another "window" (Byobu) running and it too shows zero ghost inputs. No events at all showing up at all yet except both showed a center a few moments after I plugged them in (which is weird because "no movement" isn't supposed to be an event, yet the value was exactly zero -- aka center.) If I'm assuming it really IS the iBuffalo controller despite all the inconsistencies like the fact it never did it before then it should be producing the exact same result on my PC. Or even just similar results. But no, it's showing zero problems on the PC.

At this point I'm pretty well at a loss. Working with the assumption that it is the gamepad until I can figure out some consistency here, what gamepad similar to this IS good without a bad d-pad? None of that 8-way crap especially. (And I'm definitely looking for something similar to this. For me the SNES gamepad always used to be one of the most comfortable and this one seems to be close enough because it feels just great. Not looking for a PS1/PS2 style controller and absolutely will not use a Xbox 1/360/"One" controller, period.) I'm not overflowing with cash, but at the very minimum I need to tell them what to get and unless I can verify this, I guess I shouldn't tell them to get the iBuffalo.

[edmaul69]

@nazo so i didnt read all of this book but from things i did read. Cellphone chargers do not maintain a constant voltage. The way rapid charge works is it increases and decreases voltage to prevent exploding batteries. The raspberry pi 3's system requirements is listed as 5.1v 2.5a so a cellphone charger will never maintain that. I have only used the white connector versions. I have not had issues as long as i am not trying to power a hard drive from the same power supply. As far as the loose usb connector, the cable can make all the difference. Some are looser than others. Try other cables. A lot of the power supplies made specifically for the pi have a tighter fit.

[nazo]

@edmaul69 said in Spontaneous left/right movements in everything:

@nazo so i didnt read all of this book but from things i did read.

You should have. This has been covered.

@edmaul69 said in Spontaneous left/right movements in everything:

Cellphone chargers do not maintain a constant voltage. The way rapid charge works is it increases and decreases voltage to prevent exploding batteries.

You took the term "charger" too literally. It's a USB power supply. It outputs a constant 5V. For the record, lithium ion chargers output a constant voltage and vary the current.

@edmaul69 said in Spontaneous left/right movements in everything:

The raspberry pi 3's system requirements is listed as 5.1v 2.5a

5.0V +/- at least 4% tolerance (much more than 0.4,) probably 5% or more up to 2.5A - https://www.raspberrypi.org/help/faqs/#power
Going by official statements from the people who made the thing, it likely uses close to 1A with the way I'm using it. Perhaps peaking around 1.5A or so. This is rounding up. The 4.98V minimum and 5.02 maximum voltages it produced are far within the official specifications by 10 times or more.

EDIT: Ok, I'm going to make the power supply people really happy by finally answering the big question. Or actually unhappy because you are not going to like the results... I have been meaning to rig up a USB current test connection for some time but just never really got around to it. So I guess this was a good occasion to finally stop putting it off, more to indulge my own curiosity about that gamepad than anything else. Anyway, sitting idle in the system menu (where the ghost inputs are most noticeable) it's using about 0.425 amps. Yes, less than 500mA. When I let it sit for a good while (around the sort of time range when ghosting shows up) it drops to around 0.325A (I guess there must be some power saving implemented in the hardware after all, even if only minimally so.) I told you my use case was less than they were discussing. Now, that's not a real test of course. So I fired up the PS1 emulator and ran a couple of games. The absolute highest peak value I could get it up to for a split second was 0.515, but it wouldn't hold that for more than half a second or so. About 99% of the time in PS1 gaming it was holding about 0.482 or so (it wavered a lot going down to 0.47 something and up to 0.49 something, but hovering most around that area.) I don't guess I have anything that makes extensive use of the GPU handy. I thought maybe Kodi could push things a bit more since it uses the CPU and the VPU for video playback (at least it has some minimal acceleration capabilities) but curiously enough it actually went down to about 0.385 -- lower than the main menu was before it idled for a while. I think I don't have a single power supply in my entire house that can't handle my use case scenario.

Now, I couldn't help but to indulge my curiosity about this gamepad. How much does it use? Is it somehow using a lot and pushing USB controllers hard? My PC can output a higher current than the RPi can (it specifically chooses to violate USB standards in that respect so it can charge even high powered phones.) Nope. 0.002A idle usage. Peak usage if I'm mashing buttons as hard and fast as I can can get up to 0.004A for a split second, but most wild button mashing results in 0.003A usage. So, if the problem is in any way power related it's not using enough power since input devices often tend to be closer to 10mA rather than 2mA.

I will not in any way whatsoever address further discussion of the power supply. (I shouldn't have responded to this.)

[edmaul69]

@nazo thats fine. But you should test it to rule it out. I have never been able to get a pi 3 to function properly on that low of an amperage but im not going to debate it anymore either. If people arent willing to try suggestions, no point in discussing it.

[nazo]

Good. Now, getting back on track, I return to my previous question. Assuming it is the gamepad, does anyone know of a suitable replacement that has a good d-pad and is comfortable?

[edmaul69]

@nazo a real super nintendo controller with an adapter. Nothing designed like a sega controller. I use a lot of real controllers when i play on the pi and sega made some bad dpads compared to nintendo. But i like the authenticity when using real controllers. I dont mind the dpads on playstation brand controllers. I like using the wii classic controllers as well.

[nazo]

Bearing in mind that cost is an issue though. I need to stick to something simpler and more direct right now. Also, it has to be USB, so none of those GPIO-based adapters. (I know you weren't saying GPIO specifically, I just want to be clear on that point.)

BTW, if you look at my last edit you'll be happy -- or probably unhappy when you see the numbers -- to see that I tested current anyway even though I shouldn't have.

[spruce_m00se]

i use a ps4 dual shock, havent had an problems with it, I use the USB dongle with it, it has worked flawlessly in ever game I have played.
I dont think its possible to get a better pad. im a real cheapskate, but after trying a few other options I just went with it and havent regretted it,
if you have a ps4 anyway (i dont) then its a no brainer.

[nazo]

I don't. Anyway, like I said I'm looking for something more like the SNES controller. I actually have a good PS2 controller (not stock -- I needed something smaller and I don't like the d-pad on the stock one) with a USB adapter but it ruins some of the atmosphere playing anything that isn't PS1 (and, in fact, I actually kind of enjoyed using that SFC-style gamepad for PS1 games. I don't want to play anything 3D on here right now anyway -- maybe later) and I just really really like the SNES/SFC controller's all around feel.

I'm considering using the real thing via adapter, but I really wanted to keep this simple and cheap.

EDIT: Well, I found a SFC controller on eBay with a crack in it for really cheap. I guess I'll take a risk on this. It, together with a SNES/SFC pad-to-USB adapter doesn't cost too much at least. I shouldn't even be buying this, but even if the problem is something in software or otherwise fixable without losing anything it's obvious that nothing is going to be achieved here. I'll just have an extra iBuffalo for use on my PC where it has exactly zero ghosting I guess.

[edmaul69]

@nazo if you are in the u.s. i have a snes controller case lying around if you want it. I have a beat up untested snes controller too. I cant test it since all my controllers are modified and i dont have anything with a snes port.