mame2003-plus: hundreds of new games, improved input, features, new bugs - now with runahead support

grant2258

@Riverstorm its not my map layout if you scroll up robert says he used different setups for 1 2 3 4 players and that would be a best fit all round for him. Thats why i want to get user input for configurations then do a poll.

It wouldn't suit me either .

I just want a general choice from users it looks to me like its based on gamepad configuration rather than an arcade panel.

I could be wrong though and everyone like there controls a certain way thats why we need input. The we have a poll when we get the final list.

to me it would be 2 ways only

123
456
or
456
123

Riverstorm

@grant2258 - Ok, so it would be 1 or the other for subtype. I was confused how that worked with a button in both rows.

Yeah I prefer it down for the games that have only a few buttons as it covers a majority of the games I play. That's why I use MAME Remapper, Core and ROM overrides extensively to get those keys down for the simple games and up for others! ;)

robertvb83

@riverstorm

@riverstorm said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@grant2258 - Thanks good sir! ;)

What's the difference between these two? I don't quite understand how button 3 is used twice in the first layout. Also what happens to button 6 in the first layout?

345
123

456
123

@markwkidd - Ok, if it is 1.7.3 then people using RetroPie 4.3 (possibly 4.4?) will need to upgrade core components to get that feature which sounds pretty handy.

with the latest retroarch it is now easily possible to assign functions to more than one button!

i want to play games with up to 3 buttons on my arcade panel like
123

but i also want to play 4 button games like
34
12

if i use a general layout like
345
123
it will always fit for all games up to 4 buttons (=99,9% of MAME)

then i would only need to adapt game specific for those sf2 style 6 button games like this
123
456

Riverstorm

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

if i use a general layout like
345
123
it will always fit for all games up to 4 buttons (=99,9% of MAME)

Can you explain what you mean by MAME button 3 being located in both rows? What happens to MAME button 6?

Riverstorm

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

with the latest retroarch it is now easily possible to assign functions to more than one button!

Ok I see what you're saying now.

robertvb83

@riverstorm said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

if i use a general layout like
345
123
it will always fit for all games up to 4 buttons (=99,9% of MAME)

Can you explain what you mean by MAME button 3 being located in both rows? What happens to MAME button 6?

345
YXL
BAR
123

pressing R or pressing Y will produce the same action ingame. both buttons R and Y are assigned to MAME button 3

grant2258

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

YXL
BAR

the
YXL
BAR
will never change thats why we only need to use mame button numbers to keep it simple .

you always map like this in ra mame will handle the button number mapping just visualise the number pattern you want

Riverstorm

@robertvb83 - Yeah I saw the comment of double assigning inputs. That's interesting. I use 5 and 6 extensively for page up/page down scrolling in emulators but I see how it may be useful.

@grant2258 - Yeah that makes sense to remap the MAME button inputs but keeping your physical layout in mind for panels.

robertvb83

@markwkidd said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

Specifically about Neo Geo: I think if you are using a control panel that has three buttons per row and you are emulating a system that had a four-button row, it's reasonable at that point to need a per-directory controls override, or a set of per-game overrides.

When it comes to remaps, one thing that is nice about RetroArch is that someone can post a standard 'Neo Geo to 6-Button' remap file that can be dropped in as a per-directory or per-game configuration file by other people.

What we're shooting for is a flexible enough set of baselines so that the majority of people can play the majority of games with their controller on the default settings. However if it starts to need an override of some kind for more than half of games, something has to be improved.

If the baseline set of layouts is in place -- to be determined -- then we could start thinking about "controller remap packs" which I have just invented as a term. I'm liking the sound of more and more.

well described! this is exactly what should be done. I still think that
345
123
is a valid baseline but on the other hand it is not too important! Yesterday I just did exactly what you described. I used 6 button as baseline and changed everything to the above scheme. then I saved a core input remapping file. and done! 99% of the games are correctly configured. No big deal. I further created a game specific input remapping file for sf2 and stonebal.

So on the one hand it is nice to have this preset subtypes but it only makes sense if it perfectly fits to your needs so you don't need a core remap file. but this is the only difference. so there are two ways to perfectness:

any subtype + core remap + per game remap for special games
matching subtype + per game remap for special games

in any case: quite easy

grant2258

@robertvb83 I understand that suits your needs. Maybe it will suit others too. I think riverstorm was happier with

456
123

Everyone will be different thats the point teh defaults are to cover most bases I would pick the same layout as riverstorm for a 6 button personally. I wouldnt want button 4 the second on the top row unless it was a gamepad.

robertvb83

@grant2258 would you prefer to play 4-button games on a 6-Button layout as
4
123

rather than
34
12
?
I would not have taken this into consideration, it feels unnatural for me but interesting, that's all just personal preferences. as said it doesn't really affect me much.
I am a little afraid that the majority will not easily come clean with the concept of core or game remap files, which once understood is a really comfortable way to get your collection configured quickly

grant2258

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@grant2258 would you prefer to play 4-button games on a 6-Button layout as
4
123

rather than
34
12
?
I would not have taken this into consideration, it feels unnatural for me but interesting, that's all just personal preferences. as said it doesn't really affect me much.
I am a little afraid that the majority will not easily come clean with the concept of core or game remap files, which once understood is a really comfortable way to get your collection configured quickly

Well if i only used gamepads which i rarely do I would have that memory muscle pattern.

Ive always used arcade type controls so my memory muscle patterns are towards that is all.

Like you said at the end of the day its a generic starting point and we cant please everyone no matter which one we choose.

Gamepad users will try get that same muscle memory pattern instead of an arcade style I do get where your coming from.

is the shape you seeking in your mind from gamepads

Riverstorm

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

well described! this is exactly what should be done. I still think that
345
123
is a valid baseline

I don't think it's a bad setup but you loose a very useful feature and that's the ability to page up/page down in you game emulators. This feature is by default buttons LR (potentially 56) in MAME.

If you have a large game list of 200 or 300 games it's handy to page down to the middle of the list vs. one game at a time that takes quite a bit longer. If you have over 1,000 it would be a nightmare to scroll down one game at a time.

I am not sure of the exact goal of subtypes but I think they are perfect for beginners or out of the box up and running. As you become more familiar with RA then remaps are a great way to tweak your controls to perfection.

I agree with Grant every input scheme/diagram for RA is 100% based on controllers and nothing around Arcade panels. I never really noticed until you pointed it out. I think your idea of leaving RA alone and remapping MAME is perfect. Then you're still rooted in RA but complete freedom with Plus to customize how you see fit.

Gamepad users will try get that same muscle memory pattern instead of an arcade style I do get where your coming from.

is the shape you seeking in your mind from gamepads

@robertvb83 - That IS the shape by default for gamepads. No need to seek it! :)

I think what Grant has been saying for weeks now is really we have two separate things. Arcade panels and gamepads. Gamepads have been established and pretty much standard but he's trying to address is mapping RA gamepad buttons to MAME buttons not taking for granted physical layout needs to be taken into account.

robertvb83

@riverstorm I think you mix up something! the subtype config we are talking about refers ONLY to ingame controls! this has nothing to do with controls within Emulationstation and scrolling through your list of games. This changes nothing to your controller layout anywhere outside a running game!

think of it like this. You define your Retropad in Emulationstation like

YXL
BAR

and you can use L and R for scrolling, then within Retroarch (after loading a game) this will be remapped to mame-buttons 1 to 6 in any order that you wish. so you can assign mame button 1 and 2 (e.g. shoot and jump) to whatever buttons you like. You never change YXRBAR you only change the assignment which physical button points to which mame button ingame function

grant2258

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@riverstorm I think you mix up something! the subtype config we are talking about refers ONLY to ingame controls! this has nothing to do with controls within Emulationstation and scrolling through your list of games. This changes nothing to your controller layout anywhere outside a running game!

think of it like this. You define your Retropad in Emulationstation like

YXL
BAR

and you can use L and R for scrolling, then within Retroarch (after loading a game) this will be remapped to mame-buttons 1 to 6 in any order that you wish. so you can assign mame button 1 and 2 (e.g. shoot and jump) to whatever buttons you like. You never change YXRBAR you only change the assignment which physical button points to which mame button ingame function

this is correct well it is now this is not the case for mame2003 though. Mark has made these changes.

the only question is the defaults set not being right
123
456

thats why you guys get to decide on a new new retropie_default_6 panel in a poll

it is important to keep in mind everything is redifineable you can explain to people why they cant play 6 button games with your default that why i could never pick that one myself

Riverstorm

@robertvb83 - Ooops yeah that's right ES has different controls defined elsewhere but I think the core issue is still the same mapping RA to MAME in a functional way depending on where you drill those holes! ;)

grant2258

@riverstorm

he has this layout

 3 4 5
_______
|o o o| 
|o o o|

 1 2 3
-------

best i can do with ascii

robertvb83

@riverstorm said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@robertvb83 - Ooops yeah that's right ES has different controls defined elsewhere but I think the core issue is still the same mapping RA to MAME in a functional way depending on where you drill those holes! ;)

sure but what I am saying you don't loose any functionality with
345
123

so I am counting on your vote for this as basis in the upcoming poll :-D

btw see my signature. its linked to my cabinet with pictures of my control panel layout

grant2258

@robertvb83 said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@riverstorm said in mame2003-plus: 250 new games, new input system, new features, new bugs:

@robertvb83 - Ooops yeah that's right ES has different controls defined elsewhere but I think the core issue is still the same mapping RA to MAME in a functional way depending on where you drill those holes! ;)

sure but what I am saying you don't loose any functionality with
345
123

so I am counting on your vote for this as basis in the upcoming poll :-D

you do loose functionality for 6 button games again up people can vote for the retropie_choice thats the fairest and easiest way. If i was setting my panel up like that id just throw it out and just plug a gamepad in instead. The whole point is these panels can handle the configurations a gamepad cant thats why you need separate controls for sf2 and neogeo with a gamepad if you and most user want a gamepad emulated on panel i can live with that we still have the other panel default

robertvb83

@grant2258 nah, 6 button games are considered to be manual configured as we all like to comfortably rest our palms and use bottom row primarily.
456
123
is also not feasible for 6 button games, you will need
123
456
so there is a clear advantage for
345
123

I feel a little tired, too much has been said about this more-complex-than-I-ever-thought topic