mame2003-plus: hundreds of new games, improved input, features, new bugs - now with runahead support

Darksavior

@mitu That's some fast troubleshooting. Working good, thanks!

Clyde

Why does mame2003-plus default to analog as of late? It didn't before, and although many modern game controllers also have additional analog sticks, many simple gamepads and arcade cabinets do not, but all but the very rare pure analog sticks have digital controls. So, wouldn't it be better to default to digital as the lowest common denominator?

grant2258

@Clyde the same reason mame does this directions need to map to analog to work and custom mapping .

Mame also sometimes creates configs that arent default like luner lander if you create the games config in digital mode and swap to anlog its messed up because the custom config it already made. it the same deal with the real mame you need to map your digital buttons that it defaults to analog for directions.

Clyde

Hm … I don't remember MAME (mame2003 and 0.185) not using my digital sticks by default since I came back to emulation approx. two years ago. IMO such problems only started in mame2003-plus recently.

Do I remember correctly? If so, why was it different before?

grant2258

2003 never supported analog controls mame078 needs digital controls mapped defaults to analog cant speak for mame0185 would need to dowload it and check.

juts downloaded mame0185 started pacman uses the analog stick.

This is the mame default way of doing things. I dont really mind if you want the option changed just ask mark. Im only doing mame driver updates and such from now on mark looks after the libretro part of things. There will be more problems doing it the other way round but it can be explained to users how to fix it.

Darksavior

@grant2258 I didn't have to do this to the pi mame .20x build I tried a few weeks ago. I never checked what the default was but my pad and stick worked out of the box.

At least have a warning about it or something at the github and/or here.

dankcushions

mame2003 supported analog controls for analog games. retroarch has a configurable ability to bind digital joystick to analog stick controls.

grant2258

@Darksavior https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-plus-libretro/pull/644

@dankcushions mame2003 is a hard coded hack that only works for some games if they use standard up down left right you would be ok

markwkidd

This question of digital-analog defaults seems squarely in my wheelhouse as a bridge of collaboration between the core and libretro/retroarch. When that dynamic is working well, sometimes both the core and RetroArch wind up making advancement.

That being said I'm mostly only posting by phone for a while. In the meantime, this is the most advanced MAME core in terms of analog support. That happens to mean that we're right on the rough cutting edge.

That's my sense of the situation.

Riverstorm

@grant2258 or @markwkidd - Can you explain the difference between digital only and analog and digital. The latter doesn't do both as in use the same settings for an arcade cab and/or analog stick that may have both types of controls. Some of those arcade panels cover the gambit of types of controls. I've been using a keyboard and a XBOX controller with the digital and analog setting and both seem to be working ok so I don't quite understand the difference between the two settings.

grant2258

@Riverstorm there is a lot of things going on in the code and reason the way it is. Im not going to going in great detail here it beyond the scope of this thread.

Basically it comes down this analog mode sends the analog controls (retropad mappings) to and digital mappings lstick

digital mode sends the analog controls (retropad mappings) to and digital hat mappings to dpad

if you want to change this default behavior in goto input general in analog mode and change your up/down/left/right. Be aware doing this can screw with some games that dont map standard and it will make you have to set inputs up for some games if you do this.

keyboard is a completely separate input from retropad if your using keyboard only or sim input mode.

grant2258

only last words of advice on this mark is tag the code where its working. chaging the quick options menu will be fine but if you start messing with the defaults be careful what your doing when none standard games map. Again not too fussed with what you decide to do just tag a point where it is working so you can go back to it.

Riverstorm

@grant2258 - Thanks for explaining. I don't fully understand everything you wrote as there seems like a lot of hardware combo's to cover. I'll keep playing around as it's been working well so far with the "analog and digital" option.

I haven't flipped over to "digital" only as I figured I would need to wipe all cfg files to switch. Since it seems any custom game cfg files would get "orphaned" potentially depending on the settings used.

grant2258

@Riverstorm thats not how mame works if something in input this game is changed it does not use the settings in input->general else it does so any changes you make to input->this game (none standard will highlight white) will stick no matter what you set input general too.

ok let me show by example why I dont want to confuse people (and its why its out of the scope of this thead users shouldnt need to understand anything below this comment).

I dont know if you remember the problem we used to gave with luner lander not mapping right well this is because mame driver maps analog none standard to a hard coded direction to a digital direction.

This reminds me i need to fix that driver up. So what you need to do is load luner lander up goto input->this game youll see the paddle is highlighed white none standard input so no matter what you do input general it wont change.

The fix for this driver is easy though it just used the wrong dial setting that done the driver and hard coded a joystick direction to it.

the driver code just needs changed from this

PORT_ANALOGX( 0xff, 0x00, IPT_PADDLE|IPF_REVERSE, 100, 10, 0, 255, KEYCODE_UP, KEYCODE_DOWN, JOYCODE_1_UP, JOYCODE_1_DOWN )

to this.
PORT_ANALOG( 0xff, 0x00, IPT_PADDLE_V|IPF_REVERSE, 100, 10, 0, 255 )

mame078 never had a digital mode so some drivers(very few) will need this hard coding error fixed but its best just reporting it and not pondering on how it works. I dont mean to dismissive but it can get complicated its best describing input probs and me mark and arcadez can work out the issue because we know how it works from the the core to ra getting it.

markwkidd

Ideally the libretro frontend can and will automatically try to map whatever physical controller the user has to the original analog or digital input on the emulated game. That wouldn't guarantee things work right for all games out of the box, but it would go a long way in that direction

Because of Grant's work, the core is now able to 'speak' analog libretro inputs but, for example, RetroArch doesn't come set up with default analog to digital maps, so the integration doesn't feel polished yet.

markwkidd

Grant is the expert on this topic though. What you're hearing from me is my thoughts on what my work needs to be on these inputs.

I was on the previous page of the thread and hadn't seen the latest messages.

Riverstorm

@grant2258 @markwkidd - I hear what you're saying and it makes sense. I do remember the Lunar Lander issue too that you're mentioning.

I understand the inputs being highlighted are overrides. My thought is what happens if I previously configured it with an analog input when using analog and digital. Then if I switched to digital only. Is that input orphaned due to an analog input isn't recognized in digital only? Basically if I switch from an analog controller to digital only like an SNES gamepad. In my thoughts it seems "to be sure" you would need to wipe all configs when switching types. Also I thought the default.cfg was reset which is going to change a bunch of inputs regardless.

I agree I don't need to know exactly what's happening under the hood but last night a few things did cross my thoughts as I was reading the link you provided. Really it's not about under the hood. I am not sure I know how it really works above the hood.

Here's what I think but it might not be correct.

One is I have to pick all analog or all digital controllers now. I can't mix and match both types due to I have to select either analog and digital or digital only. I can't play with an XBOX controller for player 1 and an SNES controller for player 2.
If I decided to switch from say an analog controller to digital like an SNES controller. Then I need to switch my input type at this point which will reset the MAME default.cfg.
Switching between "analog and digital" and "digital only" will reset my default.cfg. Basically I will need to reconfigure all my games if I switch between the two options?

What if I want to test different types of controllers? It seems like a high price to reconfigure everything on an input switch. I have maybe only 30 games with overrides but it still is a pain to reconfigure everything every time you switch between analog and digital.

Does current MAME have you switch and wipe cfg files when using different controller types or down the road analog will be a bit more seamless for the user? There's a lot of options going on to get analog and digital working together that seems very confusing.

This option requires a restart, that one requires deleting all cfg files, these two together require you to wipe out all your configs and restart. I can't keep all the combo options straight right now and I was watching as the changes were being implemented. I am thinking for a new user I would be completely overwhelmed and lost! It just feels a bit overly complicated.

To be honest if I know I am building a cab with digital only games and no analog I think I would stick with regular mame2003 due to it being much simpler and cfg files aren't being reset flipping options.

I like the analog and I really appreciate all you guys do. I was just sharing some thoughts so don't take it as anything bad and make comments about ripping options out. I am just trying to share feedback as a user.

For me everything was ok right up until analog was implemented and now there's so many "stipulations" of combos I am a bit afraid to change any of the core options might reset my default.cfg which can be a big deal for users with dedicated cabs, cocktail setups or just a bunch of custom configs, etc. I go through many games to set 3 and 4 players that are stored in the cfg files. I used to wipe out the core options file after each update and reconfigure to remove renamed options that are stale but not recently.

grant2258

well if i had my way people would just use input general just leave it on analog and digital. All analog and digital does is change you input general.

Your assuming you need to delete configs that happened because of structure changes of adding analog to accomadate ra none legacy mode. There is no reason to delete you config at all anymore you making assumptions. Once you at the latest mame2003-plus your done

All you need to know is analog and digital with none legacy mode and use the tab menu its the same as mame.

Mame does not have none legacy mode changes had to be made. None legacy mode is what complicated things. I personally dont understand it myself maybe mark can explain it to you. The rest of the settings is ra end its very incomplete I think the idea is this will take over the tab menu again you would need to clarify with mark. It no where near being complete though. I think what will happen eventually they will try copy fba and turn mame into setting everything liek a gamepad and setting dips from the quick menu and be limited to one control device

caver01

I have been playing with analog inputs in lr-mame2003-plus and have been disappointed with the responsiveness compared to advmame. What I mean by that is that I can very easily generate backspin--a problem usually solved by increasing the sample rate.

For reference, I run a Pi 3B, fresh RetroPie 4.4 stretch image, updated. The relevant controller hardware is keyboard (ipac4) and, most importantly, I have two (2) TurboTwist spinners and the U-Trak trackball (both of these running USB interfaces that look like two mice).

Take MiniGolf, for example. Without much effort, I can swipe the trackball for my shot and 2003+ sends the ball backwards (note: this is not because my axis needs to be reversed). If I slide it up SLOWLY, it moves in the right direction. Similar problems manifest with with spinners. Give them a good hard whirl and you get backspin--like a wagon wheel on an old western film.

Back in the old days, I would edit the Windows XP registry and increase the polling rate for serial inputs. This solved the problem, as the hardware is built to a very high spec that the OS typically ignores. There are similar settings for the pi in the cmdline.txt: usbhid.mousepoll=2 which I THINK makes a difference in advmame, but does not seem do much in 2003plus. Any thoughts?

I am happy to rebuild from source and test using my real arcade hardware if that helps. I would really love to switch some of the control-dependent titles over from advmame to an lr-core. I love everything you guys are working on here!

grant2258

@caver01 is dont have that hardware try adjusting the sensativity in the analog menu. it could be ra polling as well dont have the hardware to debug it. The sample rate should be on 48000 anyway