Nintendo's got everyone scurrying for dark corners

thelostsoul

@mediamogul Nintendo is aiming the roms and as you said, there is nothing in emulators illegal about. Spreading roms was illegal from day one, so it's no wonder what happened. RetroPie doesn't contain anything Nintendo could do against. Some of proprietary content like images of an actual SNES console could still be a problem, but in a waaaay lower priority than a rom site. I just don't fear anything here.

Clyde

@lilbud I also understood your term "more will pop up" as a reference to new sites, so thanks for the clarification.

But without new sites, the number of the existing ones will dwindle with every legal blow from the IP holders. Thus, there will be less and less sites available to step up for closed ones.

edit: And the remaining ones may drift more and more into shady businesses, because only staunch criminals will be willing to take the growing risks.

mediamogul

@thelostsoul said in Nintendo's got everyone scurrying for dark corners:

RetroPie doesn't contain anything Nintendo could do against.

If they so chose, they could always make the claim that RetroPie and projects like it facilitate piracy. Thankfully they do seem to be preoccupied with ROMs at the moment, so let's hope their lawyers don't learn to multitask. The only truly definable area where we arguably infringe in any way is through the unlicensed use of their logos. Sometime in the future that may need to be reconsidered if it's ever contested to be outside of fair use.

thelostsoul

@mediamogul The logos was my first thought too. In the US there is a fair use rule for that, unless you earn money by using it, fan sites should be allowed. Wouldn't be it make a sense to host it in the US? Besides that, all these files could be downloadable by included scripts. Some Linux based operating systems are doing this with copyrighted and proprietary stuff too. Just in case we/you get in trouble.

mediamogul

@thelostsoul said in Nintendo's got everyone scurrying for dark corners:

Besides that, all these files could be downloadable by included scripts.

It's a good thought, but I don't think there's a perfect solution that would be legally clear in all regions. For example, making material available as a separate download is considered the same as including it outright in the UK and probably other areas. Make no mistake, I'm not advocating that anything be done about this at the moment. It's not even completely clear that there's a violation at all. With any luck we'll never have to worry about any of this.

Shizzmoney

download and archive as much as you can, while you can, folks

edmaul69

I actually really liked emuparadise. I never had popups using chrome. Ads all over the page yes but no popups. Loveroms on the other hand was full of popups of a malicious flavor. Then having to find little places where they had tiny text to keep clicking on to get to the next page to eventually get to the roms was annoying.

KN4THX

I know we don't post links or sites in regards to certain types of files, but when speaking about archiving and preservation, what about the one that rhymes with shark hive spot borg? They seem to remain untouched in general over the years and you can find everything from Windows versions to commercials. Does anyone know the history of this site or if it is deemed non-threatening since it's goal seems to not be geared towards profit?

mediamogul

@thedatacereal said in Nintendo's got everyone scurrying for dark corners:

Does anyone know the history of this site or if it is deemed non-threatening since it's goal seems to not be geared towards profit?

I'm sure that any means of getting ROMs by a simple Google search will eventually be dealt with by Nintendo and perhaps even other interested parties as the commercial viability of retro games increases. The exposure of putting ROMs on a website was just never a good idea to begin with and all those roads were inevitably going to end here.

I'm an active proponent of film preservation, going so far as to master, restore and even compile and produce additional material for films that have never seen a commercial release. My goal is to give these movies the full treatment that official releases have seen. However, my work has always been released carefully to semi-private channels and most importantly, to like-minded people who truly care for the material and have taken the time to seek it out. As a result, these films are now sufficiently preserved online, as well as with a few thousand private collectors who, in most cases, aren't looking to just add the one millionth movie to their collection that they'll never watch. Best of all, I have never seen my work pop up on Ebay, a comic book convention or even so much as a public torrent site. If the worst thing that happens to game preservation is that people have to become more careful and knowledgeable to take part in it, then I can't help but see that as a positive.

youxia

What's the point of "preservation" if nobody is going to see these movies bar a few thousand? I see this elitist approach all the time on underground trackers - it's the same regarding rare videogame material - and I could never fathom this kind of mindset. Never even mind that it's not preservation at all, since all it takes is for such "semi-private channel" to disappear - happens all the time - and then it's all for nowt anyway. It's quite simple: if people responsible for MAME employed similar logic, we'd never have our weekly contest here (and millions of people around the world would only have some vague memories of their arcade days instead of being able to enjoy all these games now)

In my opinion there should be a limited copyright period on all cultural works, say 20 years or so, so the artist/companies can make their money and after that it should be released into public domain. So the people inhabiting this messed up planet could enrich their lives without others endlessly seeking to commercialise and monetise everything.

In this particular case of Nintendo using awful strongarm tactics, reminiscent of dark days of RIAA witchhunts, it's bitterly ironic since it has no doubt a lot to do with the recent success of their Mini consoles and increasing popularity of retro-gaming, which in turn also fuels sales of their classic titles. Now, that would not be possible without those awful rom sites/torrents and emulator devs, who kept the retro gaming hobby alive during all the years when nobody from the industry gave a toss about it.

KN4THX

@youxia I'm torn on the "expiring" rights of products. If I created something magical or even crappy, but I put my hard work and heart into it, I don't want to just have the rights stripped from me.

That said, all media including video games have copyrights that DO expire after after an extended duration, at least here in the States. That being said, someone can purchase them I believe, and renew the rights.

What I would agree with is that if the rights expired, whoever chose to purchase or renew the rights should be allowed to do so, provided they put forth a recognizable effort to use/distribute/sell said copyright in order to keep the product in the public's hands and not simply keep it in a closet just because they can.

Again, I am torn, because a person did create this product, and while the author is still alive I feel they should have the rights out of respect. Corporations on the other hand, I could be a little less forgiving towards

mediamogul

@youxia said in Nintendo's got everyone scurrying for dark corners:

What's the point of "preservation" if nobody is going to see these movies bar a few thousand?

Preservation is not mutually exclusive to our ability to experience the preserved item for free and at our beckon call. When a movie is released on Blu-ray in a limited pressing of a few thousand through legitimate retail channels, there's no question that it's now preserved in that form, regardless of exclusivity. Also, while I'm comforted to know that close to 50 Gutenberg Bibles are preserved throughout the world, I don't feel entitled that I should be able to thumb through one whenever I want. I would have to go seek one out and put time and effort into arranging a viewing if it truly meant something to me. Still, despite my immediate lack of access, they are none the less preserved.

In my opinion there should be a limited copyright period on all cultural works, say 20 years or so, so the artist/companies can make their money and after that it should be released into public domain.

Other than a minor difference of opinion over the term length, I wholeheartedly agree with every fiber of my being. Unfortunately, it's just not how things are. If I could change the laws myself, I promise you that I would.

In this particular case of Nintendo using awful strongarm tactics, reminiscent of dark days of RIAA witchhunts...

The RIAA was going after little Timmy and grandma for downloading a handful of songs, which does indeed seem to be an overreach, not to mention a big waste of time. Nintendo, on the other hand, are going after some pretty big entities that are profiting off of their intellectual property and limiting the audience that would otherwise pay to an uncertain, but very real degree. The only consequence for us is that we can't download 'Super Mario Bros.' from a website. However, the same is true for most any other commercial media out there. ROMs were previously an odd exception to this, but that appears to be changing whether we like it or not.

Clyde

Commercial break: Nearly five* entertaining yet instructive minutes about the history and criticism of copyright laws.

(* The video shows a length of 6:27, but the actual content only is 4:50 long.)

edit: typo

thelostsoul

@clyde Copyright is the right to copy. :p

Sano

@mediamogul said in Nintendo's got everyone scurrying for dark corners:

The RIAA was going after little Timmy and grandma for downloading a handful of songs, which does indeed seem to be an overreach, not to mention a big waste of time.

Mandatory IT crowd reference here

Clyde

@sano Yeah, one of my favourite scenes. :D

mediamogul

@sano

Too funny. Matt Berry's voice alone cracks me up.

akafox

This topic is so old it almost bores me. This has been going on for YEARS before all of us were born with the printing press. "They just took my book and printed themselves with their name on it and they is making money from MY work!"
Cries the author. Don't get get me wrong...that should be done because someone shouldn't do that..but they do. (And honestly don’t steal it’s it’s five to eight years old let them squeeze the life out of it) "The love of money is the root of all evil." The difference here is that with the printed word being changed like that..it can lead to all kinds of false information and lies being spread (and gee shock it still happens). You made your money back and a profit even..how much do you think
you will make on it if you don't have it for sale or even a way to use it fifty years from now anyway?

@youxia said in Nintendo's got everyone scurrying for dark corners:

In my opinion there should be a limited copyright period on all cultural works, say 20 years or so, so the artist/companies can make their money and after that it should be released into public domain.

That was the law not to long ago. Disney's stuff was about to go to public domain and they cried and whined about "OH MY GOD! They are going to use our stuff to make debauchery items of our beloved characters!" Cry and whine.
Please Sonny Bonno help us you are in politics and into music do something! Copyright Term Extension Act was thought up.

So now you can make something and..because of a law..make money on something the rest of your life. It NEVER works that way..It is NOT suppose to work that way. But hey laws make the world a better place because every law is written for the "good of the people" right?

@mediamogul said in Nintendo's got everyone scurrying for dark corners:

Preservation is not mutually exclusive to our ability to experience the preserved item for free and at our beckon call. When a movie is released on Blu-ray in a limited pressing of a few thousand through legitimate retail channels, there's no question that it's now preserved in that form, regardless of exclusivity.

Very true it is preserved..but for a limited time. That disc will suffer bit-rot and die sonner then later and then it's gone forever. However because people try to keep it alive then it is now able to be enjoyed a hundred years from now, thus why people are doing this..but I am sure you know that. On the other hand..when Capcom makes an arcade board "commit suicide" because well who the blank is going to care in then years anyway well you have to wonder if THEY care about themselves as a company. If they make the game to make money..and then it's old nobody cares..they we don't make money and so they don't care either. Why do you care? don't buy that it's old. Translation: it costs us to much to make that again so we are not going to sell it to you buy our new games because that is what we make money on right now.

All in all it comes down to money.

When Sony got sued over the VCR by the cable companies Sony won.
Judge: "So I don't give a damn if they can record your shows. What is wrong with that?"
Cable (movie) companies: "But they are going to use it to make bootleg copies and sell it and make money from our stuff!"

And the movie companies did just that..and the movie rental business was born! They made a crap ton of money.

When BlockBuster started renting games to people Block Buster won:
Judge: do you own all the games you rent?
Blockbuster: Yes. Want to see the receipts?
Judge: Well they can do what they want with them then
Nintendo: But that's not fair! Now no one is going to buy our games we'll go broke!

And they did just that and made the super Nintendo..and made MORE sales on games because we could try it before we spent our hard earned money on it

When Napster was created it was because it was a stand against the unjust tatic of overcharging people for music people lost.
People: We love our artists and want to free them from the contracts that they are being extorted with!
Metallica: Oh no they love us so much that they are sharing it with other people! How dare they do that!
Record industry: Your are right..why if they can start getting music directly from the artists well will lose money and go broke!

And they did just that...and Itunes ect. was born! They made a crap ton of money.

When torrenting movies became popular people lost:
People: Look we can download movies..it's crappy. Well at least I can see if I even want to spend the money on it because..

A: going to the movie theater is expensive.
B: I don't want to pay for a bum movie because all the good parts were in the trailer.
C: I want to know it little Johnny can go see that movie..because the last Disney movie I took him to has sexual innuendos in it.
D: I want to be cool and know what people are talking about so I can talk about things too, but i don't have the money and people will not care after it is out on DVD/BRD (but that is all I can afford).

Movie companies: (They are downloading our movies directly! If they do that then we will not be needed anymore and we will starve to death!

And they did just that...and Netflix was born. They made a crap ton of money.

When emulators became (more) popular people lost:
People: Look I can play games from my child hood again! It sure takes a LOT of work and it doesn't run like it should..but it's close I'll live with it.
Nintendo: You can't do that because we lose nothing on you doing it! I know let's use the same thing they are doing and make money with it!

And they did just that..and the NES mini and SNES mini was born! And they made a crap ton of money.

It's us against them. Fussinesses want to make money, consumers want to save money. At the same time companies want to save money too..but consumers get the shaft because we get crappy stuff. The case of EA Sports selling a copy of FIFA with an updated roster..that was it..just an updated roster. Then they sold it as a new game for the full price. That ticked off a LOT of gamers. How is that fair to us? It's not. I feel I got ripped off because I basically bought the same game twice..and it was sixty dollars I could have saved to buy another game I don't have!

So now there is steam. Why should I buy the newest game for (insert game console here) and spend three times the amount for a system that is only going to be alive for eight ten years When I can buy it for a fraction of the cost and all I have to do is get a better graphics card or more ram in the long run and I can still play the game I paid my hard eared money for when i want to no matter how old it is! These companies are in the business of making money on what is popular at the time, and the public does not make something popular to long at all! Let me ask you..would you pay fifty cents to play asteroids back in the 80's? No. That's expensive for something i might only get to play for five or ten minutes..but a quarter you will spend. Yet they were losing money at that price because you will not pay them what they want.

Now do you know where they are losing money? smart phone games..sixty percent of people would rather play that and spend $1.99 on a game they can TRY before they pay for it because it is more fun than the newest call of duty at sixty bucks. Why? Because it takes a team of a hundred people to make a game now..lots of people to give paychecks to! But a smart phone game is made y three or five people and so they can sell it for $1.99...no it doesn't look as good as Call of Duty 18..but that is just it.."you've played one call of duty you have played them all.

Sony said okay no DRM in our machine...why? Because the consumers said "if you do we are not buying it!" Microsoft did the same at the last minute because they had to because the fan boys said the same thing...and even though they didn't like it..they did it because they were going to lose sales because the consumers made it clear.

So why didn't the consumers get Nintendo games in the Coleco Vision flashback? Because Nintendo again was greedy. It would not have killed then to put all the games on the rom inside and say hey..give us $2.00 for every unit you sell. They were not out ANYTHING..they didn't have to make carts...they didn't have to make a new system..they could have just made money. Not a lot I am sure..but easy money never the less

So this is why Nintendo is doing this...because they are losing money..somewhere and losing money can mean "we can't make money on our new product if people can do it themselves". In the long run see..why should I buy a Nintendo switch or ps4 or Xbox one..when I can play all these old games I have never even seen before let alone played. So everybody loses? You don't see Sony or Sega or gasp even Microsoft crying about it...why? I assume it's because they do not care. In the long run though if a company starts mistreating their customers..the customers go somewhere else or simply go without and then well the only person that loses is the company because of greed.

Did you know in the UK there is a law that says you can’t make a digital copy of something you BOUGHT and PAID for already because the record and movie companies over the said “But when the do that we lose money! There needs to be a law against it!” Because see if they can force you to pay for a physical copy and THEN the digital copy they make more money. If you buy it once then make your own digital they lose money. In other countries that is called extortion.

Strange how Microsoft didn’t make it as the top operating system. But a free operating system did. (android is based on Linux which is free (and linux can be used on the desktop)) ..community funded and maintained). Funny how a youtuber can make money doing live news broadcast over say CNN or SkyNews (because these youtubers can do a better job with less money reporting the news) People will pay for what they want because they want to SUPPORT the company not because they have to. Why would you want to get Windows and pay for a product that almost works when you can get linux and it's free and almost works? Why do you think Windows 10 is "the last version of windows"?

In the end though it is Nintendo's right to do so..it is what they made and worked hard for and I am glad that they did, but on the other hand if you hold on them tightly and don't share then well I never see them or can play them
again. So I go to something else..besides I think I can beat this level of Candy Crush this time anyway....

mediamogul

@akafox said in Nintendo's got everyone scurrying for dark corners:

it is preserved..but for a limited time. That disc will suffer bit-rot and die sonner then later and then it's gone forever. However because people try to keep it alive then it is now able to be enjoyed a hundred years from now, thus why people are doing this..but I am sure you know that.

I do indeed know that. I was using it more as an example that directly related to my own work. It's not a perfect analogy on any level, as my releases are not nearly as limited as a small print run and will most likely exist as long as there's an internet. Being careful as to how and where something is released may seem elitist at face value, but it is done, first and foremost, to protect the longevity of its existence. There's absolutely no limit to the number of copies that can exist and who can possess the content other than the limited engagement one would have to seek it out.

simonster

@akafox said in Nintendo's got everyone scurrying for dark corners:

Did you know in the UK there is a law that says you can’t make a digital copy of something you BOUGHT and PAID for already because the record and movie companies over the said “But when the do that we lose money! There needs to be a law against it!” Because see if they can force you to pay for a physical copy and THEN the digital copy they make more money. If you buy it once then make your own digital they lose money. In other countries that is called extortion.

Actually in October 2014, it became legal to make copies for your own purposes in the UK. Then the music industry got involved after the law was changed and got the law repealed in July 2015. So despite a short time where it was legal, the upshot is you cant even rip a CD that you own on to your computer in the UK without technically breaking the law.

Back on topic, I am going to miss the convenience of Emuparadise, but I already have my own collection. Ultimately, this is more a blow for the casual person who is googling for a rom or wants to get into the scene. I think that Nintendo are aiming to make that difficult enough, they people will just buy a SNES or NES Classic or download a game on Virtual Console on their Switch.

That being said, there is some evidence that Nintendo have in the past used at least one rom from the internet in their Virtual Console games. Super Mario Bros on the Wii Virtual Console was found to have an iNES header which indicated that it had been ripped by someone in the early emulator scene and wasn't produced from the ROM code directly.