Backdrops in mame2003-plus

Clyde

@markwkidd said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

Ideally I think the logic would be :

use any artwork file found with the exact name as the current romset, then hen if none is foun

use any artwork file found with the exact name as the current romset's parent romset

Sounds reasonable and convenient. 👍

Riverstorm

@Clyde - Ah ok, I think I see what you're doing. You're "ignoring" the monitors EDID information on the HDMI cable "handshake" with that command and then manually setting it with group and mode in the /boot/config.txt which would effectively tell the Pi the resolution and I suppose determine the frame buffer size.

Basically I just see the frame buffer as a chunk of memory allocated to display one game frame (or more) at the resolution the Pi is given. I know it gets more complicated than that with multi-buffering or say on the launch menu when you may change the render res on the fly but I found it does degrades the video on upscale when lowering render res. Anyway you're answers are great and I don't want you have to spend time explaining it so I am really ok and I think I have a general gist of what you're doing.

Yeah, I tend to leave it on as background noise and as a conscious choice. I find the History or Discovery channel interesting to listen to in the background even though I am at at the mercy of the stations daily broadcast lineup. I still find it educational at times and interesting to boot. I try to make good choices on my "white noise", most days, but do indulge in my share of trash TV. It may be a cultural thing as I do know many folks that use a TV for background noise. Anyway no judgement here on whether folks care to have that background noise make no never mind but I did read a study several years ago that you're more at risk of dementia with a complete lack of sound. I spent a good 10 or 15 years living alone, which I surprisingly didn't mind at all but there's a lot less sound when living solitary.

You can actually block advertisement videos while watching a Youtube video? Like skip right over them? I would love the ability to do that!

Where I live my drive to work is about 7 minutes and that's actually into the downtown area. I go home for lunch each day and still have a good 40 minutes at home. I love riding bike in the summer months also but actually exercise 7 days a week, mainly indoors as we see a good 8 or 9 months of cooler weather and 3 or 4 of semi-decent. I was at my brothers place last night and my nephew had some friends over going into the marines in a few weeks. We had some pushup, planking and other "contests". I held my own for being the old guy. These young guys are so energetic and ambitious as they prepare for life in the military, good stuff. Life is going to get a lot more complex over the simple life of high school. It's been well over 30 years now, getting closer to the easy life of retirement. Wait! No that will never happen with health care what am I thinking! ;)

@grant2258 - Setting in the raspi-config doesn't change anything (it's effectively the same) and with a shader on it still looks terrible (basically you still need bi-linear with shaders or filtering) but with your suggestion on bi-linear filtering has been really helpful.

The settings I found best overall as a compromise so far are bi-linear on, a multiplier of 4 and beam width of 1.2. Plus all the other defaults discussed. A multiplier of 5 gets thin, it's thin at 4 also (with bi-linear filtering) but a bit better off. At 6 my screen is completely black. I'm not sure what happens here. So thin it's vaporware. You have to restart the core between multiplier changes or you won't see the change.

If vector settings were on a per-game vs a core basis I would prefer a beam width of 1 on say Tempest. A BW of 2 on HD displays is just to wide.

I don't know what the framerate should be but on Omega Race it was around 40 and seemed to play ok with those settings.

mitu

@Riverstorm said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

You can actually block advertisement videos while watching a Youtube video? Like skip right over them? I would love the ability to do that!

You can, just install uBlock origin - I think it's available as an extension for all major browsers.

Riverstorm

@mitu said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

You can, just install uBlock origin - I think it's available as an extension for all major browsers.

Thanks, I will definitely give it a try. Anymore it seems Youtube has gotten just as bad as regular TV with advertisements! The more popular videos have more advertisements as they know they got you as a viewer! :)

Clyde

@Riverstorm said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

@Clyde - Ah ok, I think I see what you're doing. You're "ignoring" the monitors EDID information on the HDMI cable "handshake" with that command and then manually setting it with group and mode in the /boot/config.txt which would effectively tell the Pi the resolution and I suppose determine the frame buffer size.

Exactly that. 😊

I did read a study several years ago that you're more at risk of dementia with a complete lack of sound. I spent a good 10 or 15 years living alone, which I surprisingly didn't mind at all but there's a lot less sound when living solitary.

Although living alone, I seldom have silence in my home, unless I want to relax or sleep. While doing housekeeping or other braindead activities, I often hear podcasts (haha, I first wrote "podcats"), lectures or debates. In summer, the sounds of the people in my neighborhood through my open windows are quite enough to prevent dementia. 😄

You can actually block advertisement videos while watching a Youtube video? Like skip right over them? I would love the ability to do that!

Like @mitu, I use uBlock Origin for that.

We had some pushup, planking and other "contests". I held my own for being the old guy.

Respect! 👍

I don't know what the framerate should be but on Omega Race it was around 40 and seemed to play ok with those settings.

Yeah, that's my framerate in Omega Race with VM 3 and BW 2, too.

markwkidd

@Riverstorm said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

If vector settings were on a per-game vs a core basis I would prefer a beam width of 1 on say Tempest. A BW of 2 on HD displays is just to wide.

I'm posting to make sure you know that you can set the core options on a per-game basis in RetroArch.

Riverstorm

@markwkidd said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

I'm posting to make sure you know that you can set the core options on a per-game basis in RetroArch.

Ah, that's perfect! Thanks for the information. @grant2258 Also I forgot to mention the most important piece. With those settings above it was incredibly close to what can be achieved in AdvMAME. I would have to go to a side-by-side screenshot and start picking at differences.

There's a tri-filter effect in AdvMAME that's really nice but I think I can live without it as the backdrops fit perfectly in Plus. Whereas AdvMAME they are still some minor issues so it's a good trade-off I think. I will be switching my vector games over to Plus now too. I only have a few games left in FBA or I would be on a single core, never thought I would see that day. Plus just keeps getting better.

A multiplier of 5 makes the line so thin it starts to show "jagged" lines again and with 3 and bi-linear it looks just a smidge wide to me. A multiplier of 4 with bi-linear and BW of 1.2 (for 4:3) and 1 for (3:4) make a decent slim smooth vector line. There's still a lot of games untested but with some tweaking I think they should be fine.

I think Clyde's snaps look great with a BW of 2 when I look at them but on my TV 1 looks correct so I suppose fiddling a little with the settings might be needed to adjust for taste or display. Anyway thanks @markwkidd @grant2258 @UDb23 @Clyde and @mitu for all the help in figuring this out.

@grant2258 - side note thanks for the tweak of allowing analog on the buttons has opened new possibilities for racing games. I put my gas on the right trigger, brake on the left and use the thumb buttons for shift up/down which has made Out Run and Out Runners really quite fun.

@Clyde - That's one of my worst fears is some type of neuro-degenerative disease like dementia, Alzheimers, etc. Damn it I want to make it to my retirement in one piece and be able to enjoy it, do some traveling and move well still! ;)

grant2258

@Riverstorm no problems at all on the fixes glad things are working out for you with the vector games at last. While your playing out run change your gamma to 0.5 looks so much closer to the arcade

Clyde

@Riverstorm said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

@Clyde - That's one of my worst fears is some type of negro-degenertive disease like dementia, Alzheimers, etc. Damn it I want to make it to my retirement in one piece and be able to enjoy it, do some traveling and move well still! ;)

I think you meant neuro-degenerative. But don't worry, such typos happen to all of us and are surely not a sign of beginning Alzheimer's. ;)

Damn it I want to make it to my retirement in one piece and be able to enjoy it, do some traveling and move well still! ;)

And play retro games I hope!

UDb23

@markwkidd said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

have you come across a list of all the games with backdrop art in your travels?

I searched quite a lot on this matter since the artwork system has been implemented in mame2003plus; could not find a final complete list. Mr Do's site show the list you already mentioned in the "old artwork" section and also you can filter the "current" artwork list to display only the roms with backdrops. The 2 lists you get are different; probably 'cause some ".art" backdrops were included in the game driver in more recent mame. Also some of the artwork listed as backdrop (old artwork list) actually doesn't use backdrop but actually is an overlay (armor attack e.g.).
Another example is Missile command: backdrop actually is just some fixed text, like player one score, that is actually an overlay plus another tinted overlay on top. It would make sense to use RA overlay to recreate this, instead of using backdrop .art (as we know can impact performance). Missile command is something I'm working on (RA overlay).

To make a long story short, if interested I can create a "complete" backdrop rom list with comments.

I have another MAME novice question. Does, or should, artwork from parent romsets automatically get shown for clone romsets as well?

AFAIK Mame looks for an artwork file with the same name as the rom.
Don't think Mame2003plus has an internal DB of clones so it can recognize corresponding artwork file. For sure if you rename the artwork zip as the clone it will work.
Even more: the same game may have variations: cabaret, upright, cocktail cabinets (these use same rom but had different overlays/backdops).
One example is Omega Race / Omega race cocktail; same rom but different artwork.

Mame .lay artwork system can manage "variations" , not sure the old .art can (but in mame 2010 you can choose the artwork variation thru the TAB menu; so probably also .art actually supports it)

As @Riverstorm mentioned previously probably we need some way to let the user choose what rom and variation he wants to install the artwork for. Install process must the work accordingly. @meleu and myself defined a similar approach for RA overlays; basically using an info.txt file that lists the "clones". You can check his script & usage here.

Ideally I think the logic would be :

use any artwork file found with the exact name as the current romset, then hen if none is foun
use any artwork file found with the exact name as the current romset's parent romset

Logic is correct. We need some way to make mame2003plus aware of the parent/clone relationship for that specific game.

Additionally we need to manage upright vs cocktail vs cabaret.

EDIT: as I read mame2003plus can generate . DAT file, it probably does include a list of roms w parent/clone relationship.

Riverstorm

@grant2258 - I look forward to correcting the gamma and giving it shot. Out Runners is great. I love that tweak you did as it makes several driving games playable like the ones listed above and also Ironman Off-road, Roadblasters, and some others I'm drawing a blank on at the moment.

@Clyde - I think the day is getting long for me and time to call it a day. One of my favorite sayings is a sense of humor is priceless, that made my day and thanks for pointing that out. It's corrected now. I think it's my dependence on spellcheckers (and hopefully not Alzheimer's). That actually is one of the words that's an option in the list though.

@UDb23 - I would definitely be interesting in a list as I have a folder full of old artwork that works now with the Plus updates but several are with incorrect sizing and some with overlays included so I am going to empty the folder and start fresh with only the HD BD's you've created.

AFAIK Mame looks for an artwork file with the same name as the rom.
Don't think Mame2003plus has an internal DB of clones so it can recognize corresponding artwork file. For sure if you rename the artwork zip as the clone it will work.
Even more: the same game may have variations: cabaret, upright, cocktail cabinets (these use same rom but had different overlays/backdops).
One example is Omega Race / Omega race cocktail; same rom but different artwork.

BD's actually work like samples they are aware of their clones and should work fine with a single copy. I don't know about upright vs. cocktail though. Isn't that usually just a dip switch setting?

Also did you have a chance to test the bi-linear filtering option @grant2258 suggested? Everything is looking really good here with some of the additional tweaks listed above. Then hopefully we are all on the same page and would be able to help others that come across the same issues.

On a side note I did test a perfectly sized (1920 x 1080) BD in AdvMAME with a positioning of 0,0,1,1 and it still doesn't fully sit correctly but close. I can get it correct in 1.4 but alas with game stretching. I can't fully figure out what he's doing. Basically it seems much improved but still not straight forward like Plus.

UDb23

@Riverstorm said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

did you have a chance to test the bi-linear filtering option @grant2258 suggested?

Yes, as I wrote before it makes vector look really good :-)
Wondering how @Clyde can get that good images without it activated, but as we found a solution I'm happy with that.

they are aware of their clones

Nice!

Isn't that usually just a dip switch setting?

Mame2010 (and later I believe) let you select this and also if you want full or cropped artwork (cropped to the game area).

UDb23

@Riverstorm @markwkidd
Multiple view selection for artwork is explained on this page on MrDo's site.

caver01

Wow, you are all doing some really fantastic stuff with 2003-plus. I have been quiet on the forums for a while (just busy with work etc.) but I can see now that it might be time to get back into some updates. I have yet to even load mame2003-plus so this is going to require some heavy lifting on my system I think, but it looks like you are finally giving advmame a run for it’s money in the vector department!

@Riverstorm earlier you mentioned advmame triads rgb effect not showing in a screenshot. For Omega Race, triads should not be used, as they would only come into play for multi-colored vector games. Omega Race original hardware should have a pure mono vector CRT without any filtering. Just clean, glowing phosphor lines!

Exciting stuff everyone! Well done!

Clyde

@UDb23 said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

Wondering how @Clyde can get that good images without it activated, but as we found a solution I'm happy with that.

I'm claiming innocence, because I did nothing special to my system or settings, in fact using mostly standard values and options. 😇

@caver01 said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

Wow, you are all doing some really fantastic stuff with 2003-plus. I have been quiet on the forums for a while (just busy with work etc.) but I can see now that it might be time to get back into some updates.

Welcome back! I noticed recently when I read some of your posts that I missed you on the forum. 😊

grant2258

@Riverstorm you dont have to use bilinear filtering you can use the vector-glow.glslp that ra has and that looks nice too. I think it would be slow on the pi though if you want the same setup as cyde use the same shaders as he is using

Riverstorm

@UDb23 - Ah, ok, I hadn't realized you tested it. I saw one post showing the same issues as me and then the next post kind of moved on and I didn't see any mention of testing it.

Anyway thanks for the link I will read through it here in a few minutes as I have some interest. I think after spending time in SI I might actually prefer a cropped BD and overlay. I think my biggest issue is I just don't care for shaders on the BD's.

On DAT's you could probably work your DB magic as all parent/clone relationships are listed and it's just a matter of searching flags except the parent doesn't get flagged which shouldn't matter. When @grant2258 and @markwkidd cleaned up the DAT they brought it out of the dark ages and added a whole slew of additional useful information below the ROM listing section. On the fly DAT generation has always been in my top 5 feature list in Plus.

I just wanted to say I appreciate your patience (and @Clyde's who opened the thread) on working through the vector issues. I know they aren't exclusive to backdrops and probably could have had it's own thread but it seems a lot of good information was shared.

@caver01 - Yeah most of my setup is from your tutorial. You just caught a conglomeration of vector and backdrop thoughts from several games and cores. I was trying to organize my thoughts on all the differences and compromises between cores that need to happen on a migration. I was cycling through quite a few vector games yesterday but one I spent quite a bit of time on was Tempest. It was a good example where a certain combo of settings like bi-linear and multiplier make a visible difference with BW.

I had vector games in mame-libretro, mame-advmame and arcade. All with different settings. I was flipping through games and emulators doing a lot of comparisons.

Whew, your setup is so customized you would be busy for weeks if you flipped cores. May the force be with you. ;)

@grant2258 - I will test that shader too as I have so fine-tuning to do. I have so many of your tweaks and suggestions in my setup that really make a difference on a good gaming experience. I am having a bit of trouble with vector setting overrides don't seem quite right on the Pi but I was hoping you or Mark could help me with it but I will post in the 2003 thread.

UDb23

@Riverstorm I think we're ALL doing a fantastic job in testing , developing and getting the best out of backdrops & vectors in 2003Plus. It's great teamwork where everybody brings its own competences; with the plus of the right humor and always positive approach. Quite rare these days, in general. Nice to be part of this.

UDb23

@caver01 Just noticed (after writing) you were saying the same; hope I didn't break any copyright ;-)

Riverstorm

@UDb23 said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

with the plus of the right humor and always positive approach. Quite rare these days, in general. Nice to be part of this.

Amen to that. Not enough may be said about the power of humor and truly having fun with these old retro games. I almost prefer the "social" interaction.

When I had my surgery a few weeks back it was mainly my nasal airways getting progressively blocked. They were blaming a deviated septum and turbinate inflammation. About 90% on the right and about 40% on the left all came on suddenly. It turned out they didn't even know, until the day of surgery, that there was a polyp growing down the nasal passage. We briefly discussed cancer but I'll thank the good Lord it came back benign. Little things like that make you realize what's important. So cliche eh! :)

Anyway, I didn't disagree with anything you said or done and I think quite highly of you. I honestly was just simply asking if you had tested Grant's bi-linear filtering suggestion and if it worked for you as well as it worked for me. I don't know if that came across wrong but it was just excitement that Plus has decent vector support. Which you had I so all is right as rain. ;)