Backdrops in mame2003-plus

UDb23

@markwkidd said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

have you come across a list of all the games with backdrop art in your travels?

I searched quite a lot on this matter since the artwork system has been implemented in mame2003plus; could not find a final complete list. Mr Do's site show the list you already mentioned in the "old artwork" section and also you can filter the "current" artwork list to display only the roms with backdrops. The 2 lists you get are different; probably 'cause some ".art" backdrops were included in the game driver in more recent mame. Also some of the artwork listed as backdrop (old artwork list) actually doesn't use backdrop but actually is an overlay (armor attack e.g.).
Another example is Missile command: backdrop actually is just some fixed text, like player one score, that is actually an overlay plus another tinted overlay on top. It would make sense to use RA overlay to recreate this, instead of using backdrop .art (as we know can impact performance). Missile command is something I'm working on (RA overlay).

To make a long story short, if interested I can create a "complete" backdrop rom list with comments.

I have another MAME novice question. Does, or should, artwork from parent romsets automatically get shown for clone romsets as well?

AFAIK Mame looks for an artwork file with the same name as the rom.
Don't think Mame2003plus has an internal DB of clones so it can recognize corresponding artwork file. For sure if you rename the artwork zip as the clone it will work.
Even more: the same game may have variations: cabaret, upright, cocktail cabinets (these use same rom but had different overlays/backdops).
One example is Omega Race / Omega race cocktail; same rom but different artwork.

Mame .lay artwork system can manage "variations" , not sure the old .art can (but in mame 2010 you can choose the artwork variation thru the TAB menu; so probably also .art actually supports it)

As @Riverstorm mentioned previously probably we need some way to let the user choose what rom and variation he wants to install the artwork for. Install process must the work accordingly. @meleu and myself defined a similar approach for RA overlays; basically using an info.txt file that lists the "clones". You can check his script & usage here.

Ideally I think the logic would be :

use any artwork file found with the exact name as the current romset, then hen if none is foun
use any artwork file found with the exact name as the current romset's parent romset

Logic is correct. We need some way to make mame2003plus aware of the parent/clone relationship for that specific game.

Additionally we need to manage upright vs cocktail vs cabaret.

EDIT: as I read mame2003plus can generate . DAT file, it probably does include a list of roms w parent/clone relationship.

Riverstorm

@grant2258 - I look forward to correcting the gamma and giving it shot. Out Runners is great. I love that tweak you did as it makes several driving games playable like the ones listed above and also Ironman Off-road, Roadblasters, and some others I'm drawing a blank on at the moment.

@Clyde - I think the day is getting long for me and time to call it a day. One of my favorite sayings is a sense of humor is priceless, that made my day and thanks for pointing that out. It's corrected now. I think it's my dependence on spellcheckers (and hopefully not Alzheimer's). That actually is one of the words that's an option in the list though.

@UDb23 - I would definitely be interesting in a list as I have a folder full of old artwork that works now with the Plus updates but several are with incorrect sizing and some with overlays included so I am going to empty the folder and start fresh with only the HD BD's you've created.

AFAIK Mame looks for an artwork file with the same name as the rom.
Don't think Mame2003plus has an internal DB of clones so it can recognize corresponding artwork file. For sure if you rename the artwork zip as the clone it will work.
Even more: the same game may have variations: cabaret, upright, cocktail cabinets (these use same rom but had different overlays/backdops).
One example is Omega Race / Omega race cocktail; same rom but different artwork.

BD's actually work like samples they are aware of their clones and should work fine with a single copy. I don't know about upright vs. cocktail though. Isn't that usually just a dip switch setting?

Also did you have a chance to test the bi-linear filtering option @grant2258 suggested? Everything is looking really good here with some of the additional tweaks listed above. Then hopefully we are all on the same page and would be able to help others that come across the same issues.

On a side note I did test a perfectly sized (1920 x 1080) BD in AdvMAME with a positioning of 0,0,1,1 and it still doesn't fully sit correctly but close. I can get it correct in 1.4 but alas with game stretching. I can't fully figure out what he's doing. Basically it seems much improved but still not straight forward like Plus.

UDb23

@Riverstorm said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

did you have a chance to test the bi-linear filtering option @grant2258 suggested?

Yes, as I wrote before it makes vector look really good :-)
Wondering how @Clyde can get that good images without it activated, but as we found a solution I'm happy with that.

they are aware of their clones

Nice!

Isn't that usually just a dip switch setting?

Mame2010 (and later I believe) let you select this and also if you want full or cropped artwork (cropped to the game area).

UDb23

@Riverstorm @markwkidd
Multiple view selection for artwork is explained on this page on MrDo's site.

caver01

Wow, you are all doing some really fantastic stuff with 2003-plus. I have been quiet on the forums for a while (just busy with work etc.) but I can see now that it might be time to get back into some updates. I have yet to even load mame2003-plus so this is going to require some heavy lifting on my system I think, but it looks like you are finally giving advmame a run for it’s money in the vector department!

@Riverstorm earlier you mentioned advmame triads rgb effect not showing in a screenshot. For Omega Race, triads should not be used, as they would only come into play for multi-colored vector games. Omega Race original hardware should have a pure mono vector CRT without any filtering. Just clean, glowing phosphor lines!

Exciting stuff everyone! Well done!

Clyde

@UDb23 said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

Wondering how @Clyde can get that good images without it activated, but as we found a solution I'm happy with that.

I'm claiming innocence, because I did nothing special to my system or settings, in fact using mostly standard values and options. 😇

@caver01 said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

Wow, you are all doing some really fantastic stuff with 2003-plus. I have been quiet on the forums for a while (just busy with work etc.) but I can see now that it might be time to get back into some updates.

Welcome back! I noticed recently when I read some of your posts that I missed you on the forum. 😊

grant2258

@Riverstorm you dont have to use bilinear filtering you can use the vector-glow.glslp that ra has and that looks nice too. I think it would be slow on the pi though if you want the same setup as cyde use the same shaders as he is using

Riverstorm

@UDb23 - Ah, ok, I hadn't realized you tested it. I saw one post showing the same issues as me and then the next post kind of moved on and I didn't see any mention of testing it.

Anyway thanks for the link I will read through it here in a few minutes as I have some interest. I think after spending time in SI I might actually prefer a cropped BD and overlay. I think my biggest issue is I just don't care for shaders on the BD's.

On DAT's you could probably work your DB magic as all parent/clone relationships are listed and it's just a matter of searching flags except the parent doesn't get flagged which shouldn't matter. When @grant2258 and @markwkidd cleaned up the DAT they brought it out of the dark ages and added a whole slew of additional useful information below the ROM listing section. On the fly DAT generation has always been in my top 5 feature list in Plus.

I just wanted to say I appreciate your patience (and @Clyde's who opened the thread) on working through the vector issues. I know they aren't exclusive to backdrops and probably could have had it's own thread but it seems a lot of good information was shared.

@caver01 - Yeah most of my setup is from your tutorial. You just caught a conglomeration of vector and backdrop thoughts from several games and cores. I was trying to organize my thoughts on all the differences and compromises between cores that need to happen on a migration. I was cycling through quite a few vector games yesterday but one I spent quite a bit of time on was Tempest. It was a good example where a certain combo of settings like bi-linear and multiplier make a visible difference with BW.

I had vector games in mame-libretro, mame-advmame and arcade. All with different settings. I was flipping through games and emulators doing a lot of comparisons.

Whew, your setup is so customized you would be busy for weeks if you flipped cores. May the force be with you. ;)

@grant2258 - I will test that shader too as I have so fine-tuning to do. I have so many of your tweaks and suggestions in my setup that really make a difference on a good gaming experience. I am having a bit of trouble with vector setting overrides don't seem quite right on the Pi but I was hoping you or Mark could help me with it but I will post in the 2003 thread.

UDb23

@Riverstorm I think we're ALL doing a fantastic job in testing , developing and getting the best out of backdrops & vectors in 2003Plus. It's great teamwork where everybody brings its own competences; with the plus of the right humor and always positive approach. Quite rare these days, in general. Nice to be part of this.

UDb23

@caver01 Just noticed (after writing) you were saying the same; hope I didn't break any copyright ;-)

Riverstorm

@UDb23 said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

with the plus of the right humor and always positive approach. Quite rare these days, in general. Nice to be part of this.

Amen to that. Not enough may be said about the power of humor and truly having fun with these old retro games. I almost prefer the "social" interaction.

When I had my surgery a few weeks back it was mainly my nasal airways getting progressively blocked. They were blaming a deviated septum and turbinate inflammation. About 90% on the right and about 40% on the left all came on suddenly. It turned out they didn't even know, until the day of surgery, that there was a polyp growing down the nasal passage. We briefly discussed cancer but I'll thank the good Lord it came back benign. Little things like that make you realize what's important. So cliche eh! :)

Anyway, I didn't disagree with anything you said or done and I think quite highly of you. I honestly was just simply asking if you had tested Grant's bi-linear filtering suggestion and if it worked for you as well as it worked for me. I don't know if that came across wrong but it was just excitement that Plus has decent vector support. Which you had I so all is right as rain. ;)

UDb23

@Riverstorm Sure I understood what you were asking ;-)
Mine was just a general consideration/feeling.

And yes, very satisfied with vector quality on my Pi after @grant2258's filtering tip.

Also glad to hear that in the end it went ok with your surgery. This absolutely is what really matters.

Riverstorm

Ok, I guess I wasn't sure when you referred to bringing competence to the table. I thought I had brought some, something anyway, as I hold your overlay and artwork in high regard and use a lot of it in all my builds. :) The original backdrop calculations were incorrect so I tweaked and formatted the output to exactly what was required for the .art files.

The formatting was kind of tricky but I've used Excel enough over the years that I didn't need to look it up. It took two parts. One is knowing the functions at your disposal and the other is understanding the syntax of putting it altogether. Unless you use Excel I don't think it's immediately obvious how the final output will display =ROUND(SUBSTITUTE(TRIM(SUBSTITUTE(B11/D2,"."," "))," ","."),5) but that is what's needed for each position coordinate in the .art file.

I know there's more than one way to skin a cat here and everyone comes up with cool and unique formatting and style. I think we could easily tweak some formulas and add an option to invert x/y when at 90 or 270 degrees vs inverting dimensions. Maybe even pick up those lost pixels.

I've spent a lot of time in DAT files and I can do some pretty decent DAT manipulation with DatUtil and other 3rd party software but for backdrops I don't think it would be needed. If you're working on one or two or even three BD's at a time I can easily pull all the clones for you but knowing they function like samples you only need the parent in most scenarios.

I read the artwork link posted and I think 0.107 on up has a whole lot of awesomeness going on but below that version I think relying on meleu's script for folks using rotated, cocktail, etc. and choosing which version to use based on selection such as 1) Pac-Man (3:4) or 2) Pac-Man (cocktail) etc.

Anyway you're usually very easy going and friendly but the longer the thread was off topic it seemed your answers became shorter and shorter until you kind of just stopped answering unless it was thread related.

It seems going off topic and thread drift are somewhat proportionate to a persons personality. I get it as I have some siblings you would swear grew up in another household. :) Some go with the flow and some can't tolerate it all. I figure if there's good information being shared I don't mind sidebar chatter and conversation in any thread I post. I enjoy the tidbits I learn about others.

I do undertand devs like to stay on point to retrieve relevant information quickly. On the other hand I figure we as end users get to take some liberties. It was just that one post lead to another and another and another. I had no idea it would take so many posts to understand a filter or shader was needed for the final touchup to make vectors look proper. Anyway I am very sorry we went so far off topic for so long but I really feel some good information was shared and learnt.

UDb23

@Riverstorm said in Backdrops in mame2003-plus:

but the longer the thread was off topic it seemed your answers became shorter and shorter until you kind of just stopped answering unless it was thread related.

Actually my answers' length recently is just related to the time I can dedicate; so not related to being more or less on topic.
I'd loved to take a longer holiday for xmas and new year but there were some matters
to manage at work..and 2019 started at full steam.

Sidebar chatter (I wasn't aware of this english expression; always learning) is more than welcome to me and it's interesting to know about other countries' people's point of view and daily life.

more than one way to skin a cat

poor kitty ! (another new expression to me) :-))

UDb23

@Riverstorm @markwkidd working on a "commented" complete list of backdrops.
Should be ready this weekend.

@meleu could you be interested in enhancing your overlay script to install backdrops also ?
Of course I can provide you all necessary information. In principle same approach of overlays, just different locations to copy the files on the Pi. Of course would require additional "backdrop command" in the info.txt file.

Riverstorm

@UDb23 - I apologize I am not communicating very well and it's not a big deal at all, so no worries. I think you do amazing work and definitely take your time and don't think anything is a hurry. I am always 2 steps behind on things I would like to implement on the Pi so nothing is a hurry honestly.

"There's more than one way to skin a cat" is a proverb. It means there are many ways to do something, there are many ways to achieve a goal. The oldest known use of the phrase dates back to 1854, in the work ’Way down East; or, Portraitures of Yankee Life by Seba Smith. However, there’s more than one way to skin a cat has its roots in older, similar phrases such as there are more ways to kill a cat than choking it with cream, found in the 1830s. It seems that originally the animal in question was a dog, as a seventeenth-century proverb is there are more ways to kill a dog than hanging.

I don't think "sidebar chatter" has much origin. It's more like when they had sidebar windows on web pages and you could chat "on the sidebar" usually it was just small talk or similar like "idle chatter" which is also a proverb. It's like small talk "woven" into the conversation of the original post.

Clyde

@Riverstorm @UDb23 Although German, I know about "there is more way to skin a cat" for quite a time now. It always was one of my favourite English proverbs. 😸

Riverstorm

@Clyde - I find the origin of some proverbs very interesting. We use them all the time without really knowing how they came about. When I look them up sometimes it's pretty surprising and some times gross how a proverb or common phrase started. :)

Clyde

@Riverstorm Same here! :D

Riverstorm

When I run the BD and overlay together in Space Invaders it covers my second digit credit so it always shows as 0. It's not a show stopper but just doesn't look right as it sits perfectly behind the rock. Are you guys seeing the same thing? Here's a snap below to show it.