Getting the best N64 experience on a Pi 4

dankcushions

@roslof said in Getting the best N64 experience on a Pi 4:

Oddly, lr-mupen64plus typically outperformed lr-mupen64plus-Next with optimized settings. Not always, but more often than not. In the list, you'll note I recommend "plus" more often than "next". This isn't a personal bias, rather from observation on what provided a better gameplay experience.

plus is an obsolete emulator. basically it's got an ancient version of the GLideN64 video plugin that may have better performance in some games because it's so old and featureless. it will never be updated (to update it would make it lr-mupen64plus-plus-next) - in fact, it's archived/readonly: https://github.com/libretro/mupen64plus-libretro.

For NTSC, the "lr-Next" build struggles with full-screen display that usually require Framebuffer Emulation set to true, which absolutely tanks emulation speed.

i will have some improvement to this soon. however even more excitingly, there's a new optional video plugin coming for -next which is the pre-GLideN64 video plugin, Glide64. again, this won't be as accurate but was fairly mature when it was abandoned many years ago. in fact, up until recently it was more compatible than GLideN64 (and may still be, in some cases).

More often than not, UI continues to be an issue with Pi4 emulation, more often than gameplay. For some games, it feels like the emulator will freeze/crash, but if you muscle through... you can reach some excellent gameplay. In several cases UI can get so bad that you can't get to gameplay easily or even exit the emulator properly.

for -next (GLideN64) there's definitely some optimization issues with certain 2d scenes. something about texturing. unfortunately i don't know where to start with it.

Would LOVE to know why lr-parallel otherwise crashes for 90-95% of the games. It's experimental, of course, but it could be killer of it would just remain stable.

parallel is an experimental fork of mupen64plus for implementing the pixel perfect video plugin 'angrylion' via compute shaders (part of Vulkan). of course, no raspberry pis have vulkan (and even if they did, wouldn't be powerful enough for this), so parallel on pi doesn't actually use any of that and instead reverts back to whatever ancient videoplugins it has as fallbacks, which again is probably an ancient version of GLideN64, and ancient CPU emulation etc. that it has some benefits on certain games is a happy accident, but personally i wish they would disable such pathways as it muddies the water.

i'm hoping that once -next gets Glide64 support we can retire lr-m64plus, lr-parrallel (on pi), and so on. hopefully all these compatibility lists will become redundant (no offence! :) ).

quicksilver

@roslof Looks like Dank already addressed most of your questions but I had a couple comments.

Have you tried multiplayer goldeneye using parallel? Last I tried split screen didnt work properly so you may want to check that out.

Goin' Quackers and Rayman 2 both run on the same game engine and suffer from similar glitches. I opened a ticket a while back (https://github.com/mupen64plus/mupen64plus-core/issues/724) and I believe the issue was at least partially fixed but not for ARM devices unfortunately.

Glover will "work" but requires a work around. Unfortunately I cant remember exactly what it is. I believe you have to start the game using a certain mode or setting, get to a certain point and then save state. Relaunch the game using the original settings then load state. I know thats not much to go on but you might be able to find the info needed somewhere on the web.

Also you can improve performance on some games when using gliden64 or next by playing with the following settings: Legacy Blending set to on, Background Mode set to one piece, and turning off copy color to RDRAM. Be aware this will reduce accuracy. Conversely, you can enable these settings to improve accuracy in some games that may be broken without them.

roslof

@dankcushions said in Getting the best N64 experience on a Pi 4:

i'm hoping that once -next gets Glide64 support we can retire lr-m64plus, lr-parrallel (on pi), and so on. hopefully all these compatibility lists will become redundant (no offence! :) ).

None taken. What you just stated is the dream. The list only supports people who are looking for the best experience now. The creation of the list was indeed a chore -- literally loading every game 5-6 times just to find out how to squeak out the best experience. Funny that htop F9/9/Enter and ps all/ kill -9 have become my best friends over this past week. I think you know what I mean.

It would truly be great if there was a "Redream of N64".

In the future, if we can truly get what you describe, I'd happily mark the list as "obsolete". :)

I believe as hardware changes too, newer emulators will also become more relevant and compatibility will get even better.

But as the topic suggests, people have been wanting to get the best bang-for-the-buck today. Even the obsolete lr-mupen64plus plays an important role in this. It's featured prominently in the RetroPie Settings well above the experimental emulators, so it is widely used and important at this time.

Appreciate your support as always @dankcushions .

roslof

@quicksilver said in Getting the best N64 experience on a Pi 4:

@roslof Looks like Dank already addressed most of your questions but I had a couple comments.

Have you tried multiplayer goldeneye using parallel? Last I tried split screen didnt work properly so you may want to check that out.

I haven't, but will. Do you have an alternative recommendation for GoldenEye?

Goin' Quackers and Rayman 2 both run on the same game engine and suffer from similar glitches. I opened a ticket a while back (https://github.com/mupen64plus/mupen64plus-core/issues/724) and I believe the issue was at least partially fixed but not for ARM devices unfortunately.

Didn't catch that for Rayman 2, so will update. I figured you of all folks here would know these things. Appreciated.

Glover will "work" but requires a work around. Unfortunately I cant remember exactly what it is. I believe you have to start the game using a certain mode or setting, get to a certain point and then save state. Relaunch the game using the original settings then load state. I know thats not much to go on but you might be able to find the info needed somewhere on the web.

There is a prototype I haven't tried. May have something to do with that? From what I can tell, Glover can't even boot long enough to generate a save game otherwise. Interested to learn more. Googled the heck out of this a few days ago and didn't find the work-around. Will try again.

Also you can improve performance on some games when using gliden64 or next by playing with the following settings: Legacy Blending set to on, Background Mode set to one piece, and turning off copy color to RDRAM. Be aware this will reduce accuracy. Conversely, you can enable these settings to improve accuracy in some games that may be broken without them.

Yes, I found these useful with lr-mupen64plus-Next --
But the one thing I haven't figured out: For gliden64, how in the world do you constrain options to a single game? I tried playing with the .ini files, .cfg files... Figured out MD5 and CRC values and "Good" names, etc. But could never get anything to work outside of the primary mupen64plus.cfg file.

quicksilver

@roslof I use gliden64 for goldeneye. Dont need a special rom for glover it may have had something to do with starting the game using cached interpreter but I cant remember. Unfortunately you cant set per game settings using standalone mupen64plus-gliden64.

roslof

@quicksilver said in Getting the best N64 experience on a Pi 4:

Unfortunately you can set per game settings using standalone mupen64plus-gliden64.

I think you meant can't. And if so:

:O

Wow.

BreadPie

@dankcushions Really excited about the Glide64 option and the other improvements, thanks for the update. I'd noticed a reference to it on Twitter (here: https://twitter.com/m4xwdev ) but didn't know when that might be coming.

I was curious if anyone recalls when -next became the default N64 emulator? Was that the case in the 4.6 image? I realize I can change it to whatever my heart desires, but that's the problem, my heart has desired me to switch between things so many times that I no longer remember how it started out!

roslof

@BreadPie you could always:

Close lr-mupen64plus-next if it is running
Backup /opt/retropie/configs/n64/retroarch-core-options.cfg
Edit the config, removing lines that start with mupen64plus-next
Save your edits
Run Next
Quit Next

That should regenerate and save default options.

dankcushions

@roslof said in Getting the best N64 experience on a Pi 4:

@quicksilver said in Getting the best N64 experience on a Pi 4:

Unfortunately you can set per game settings using standalone mupen64plus-gliden64.

I think you meant can't. And if so:

:O

Wow.

well, i think fundamentally mupen64plus options don't really work that way, and never will. that's why libretro exists - to fork these various standalone emulators and interface them with an API that allows more sophistication.

however i'm hoping that this kind of option micro-management won't be needed shortly:)

Nakynaw

Can't wait to set this one up and see if there is any perceptible improvement in speed with the 8G of ram. But I've read that the difference would be very small, right?

dankcushions

@Nakynaw no difference. it will be the same as a 1GB pi4. ram is hardly used at all

roslof

@quicksilver said in Getting the best N64 experience on a Pi 4:

@roslof I use gliden64 for goldeneye

Hey @quicksilver, I spent some time with GoldenEye & lr-parallel. As expected, you were right about a multiplayer issue. Here is what I found:

GFX Plugin: Auto (glide64)

640x480:
2 window split screen is perfect.
4 window split screen yields flickering for P3 and P4.

320x240
All multplayer is perfect (albeit lo-res)

GFX Plugin: rice
Too much wrong with this. Don't waste your time ;-)

GFX Plugin: gln64
"Works" at 640x480, but with terrible wall and floor textures.

I still would recommend 640x480 glide64 here for 1P/2P gameplay, and advise lowering to 320x240 glide64 for 3P/4P -- or use stand-alone GLide-N64 as you mentioned. Wish "hires" was a bit faster. Can't quite get to a clean game without stutters.

AdamBeGood

Sorry to bang on about Perfect Dark again, but are other people able to run it happily with mupen64plus-GLideN64-highres? My Pi will run it, but I wouldn't say it was as playable as the normal mupen64plus-GildeN64.

I just want to know if my Pi is an outlier or not. An easy test is on Mission 2 - Carrington Villa. After the initial section with the negotiator, my music is a bit choppy as I move through the level. It doesn't make for a pleasant playthrough really. I would just stick with normal mupen64plus-GlideN64 but as the game looks so much better in the high-res core, I feel I have to ask the question. I love Perfect Dark.

I also tried Lr-Mupen64plus-next because of the previous suggestion, but the Night Vision section doesn't work for me on that. My screen just stays black. Edit - I am talking bobbins here. It works fine.

George Spiggott

I run it in Mupen64 Plus Next in forced widescreen at the lowest screen resolution (640x360 iirc). It runs well in that resolution.

quicksilver

@AdamBeGood you're asking too much of your pi 4. Gliden64-hires is basically doubling the original resolution, that's a tall order to fill for a $35 ARM computer. Unfortunately in this situation you won't be able to have your cake and eat it too ;). Some N64 games can run well with hires mode but that should just be viewed as a bonus not the norm.

For mupen64plus-next you need to make sure color to rdram is set to async otherwise the camspy etc will not work properly. I expect performance to be considerably worse than standalone mupen64plus-gliden64.

AdamBeGood

@quicksilver Fair enough! I'm sorry... It just seems fairly close in the high-res version, it isn't miles away from being playable. When I saw that core was noted on the spreadsheet as the recommended emulator, I just wanted to make sure I didn't have some dodgy setting in my config.

quicksilver

@AdamBeGood said in Getting the best N64 experience on a Pi 4:

Fair enough! I'm sorry... It just seems fairly close in the high-res version

No need to be sorry, it's all a learning experience. Yes it can be frustrating when the performance is almost there but not quite.

George Spiggott

@AdamBeGood If you haven't already tried it, lowering the screen resolution in Retropie (down from 1080p) and lowering the audio latency (down from 64) can both have beneficial effects for emulators that are nearly fast enough.

@roslof Great work on the emulation guide. One tiny omission, I only run SotE in 320x240 with MSAA, not widescreen. AFAIK the game has no widescreen support.

There's a list of games that have widescreen support here: https://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=41744

I imagine that they all look better with widescreen enabled. I will attempt to find out with as many as I can.

Banjo-Tooie
Donkey Kong 64
GoldenEye 007
Perfect Dark (tested, yes it does)
The World is not Enough

Nakynaw

Hey Guys, until the N64 emulators get a major update, have we reached some consensus on anything about the tweaking of our Pi 4?

Its seems like the only consensus is about hybrid filter off and overclocking with hdmi_enable_4k60=1, v3d_freq=800ish and arm_freq+2000ish...

Speaking of which, I wondering, is «v3d_freq=830» really better than «gpu_freq=750»? Cause, I thought ISP, H264 and V3D were all on the same PLL and that ISP and H264 could not go higher than 750... So, when we set V3D at 830, does it really do that or it just max at 750 with the rest?

Also does everyone agree on «color to rdram is set to async»?

Skipframe, FBemulation, FXAA all seems like we are not all of the same opinion.

I am looking for a setup that would run most games with either Next or GlideN64 without making specific configs other than the emulators .cfg

George Spiggott

@Nakynaw You don't need to overclock the CPU at all to run N64. V3D overclocking is the only part of the GPU that a Pi4 needs for any emulation currently. My V3D is set very high, perhaps too high for some. It is stable on MY Pi, in the sense that I Have not encountered games won't work or any instability generally. However I have never run my Pi through a genuine stress test.