Try Retropie on a PC!

jamesbeat

@dankcushions said in Try Retropie on a PC!:

@jamesbeat
so you've found out the $30 pi3 is the slowest computer in the past 20+ years? welcome! :) don't come to these devices expecting power.

that said, i wouldn't be so eager to write the pi off. n64 emulation is progressing rapidly at the moment. it isn't so much of a power issue that you might believe. i expect big things in the coming months, and that's purely coming from progress in the emulators/plugins.

I know the Pi is not a fast machine by PC standards, as I mentioned above, I already own several of the older models.
I simply had no reason to doubt everyone who said that it was capable of running N64 games at an acceptable frame rate.
Unfortunately, those people appear to have been somewhat optimistic in their assessment.
Only one person was actually realistic about it, and it was his advice that prompted me to look deeper into the issue and watch a load of videos, which is how I discovered that 'playable' is definitely a subjective term.

dankcushions

@jamesbeat

I simply had no reason to doubt everyone who said that it was capable of running N64 games at an acceptable frame rate.
Unfortunately, those people appear to have been somewhat optimistic in their assessment

well, they were right. for example it's possible to get the pi running Mario 64, f-zero 64, Mario kart and a bunch of other games with HLE hacks going back decades. Mario 64 runs at full speed at 1080p on the gles2n64 plugin, and I've played 4 player with the other 2 using the same plugin at 1080p (kart has horrible sound on some levels).

goldeneye and perfect dark are different stories. I've seen people get them working ok but there's areas of chop (especially the opening level of goldeneye). but as I say, this is changing by the day. no-one can say the hardware isn't up to the task until work stops on the software.

dankcushions

an example: pi2 running Mario 64 and kart at HD. By who's standard is this not playable?

jamesbeat

@dankcushions said in Try Retropie on a PC!:

an example: pi2 running Mario 64 and kart at HD. By who's standard is this not playable?

That does look ok, but those games aren't really a good yardstick - I have a five year old cellphone that can play those games.

The problem is games like Perfect Dark and Goldeneye.
If you can show me those running well with no stuttering or slowdown and at a high resolution, then I will break the seal on my Pi.
As it stands, moving from my PC setup to the Pi would be a step down.

BuZz

Why does it have to be at a high resolution ? Surely if it runs fast enough at the original n64 resolution that should suffice. But of course, if you want to run things in 4x the original resolution, a rpi3 may well not be enough.

jamesbeat

@BuZz
Because the original resolution just doesn't seem to be enough for a modern TV.
My TV is not particularly big by today's standards (42") but 3D games just don't look right at the original resolution.
Also, I can use high graphics accuracy settings too, which is better at any resolution.

I agree that this is personal preference though, and not really authentic.

Having said all that, I haven't seen Perfect Dark or Goldeneye running well on the Pi 3 even at native resolution.

gizmo98

A pi3 will never be fast enough for all N64 games. Games which need LLE plugins like Rogue Squadron or Stunt Racer FX will never be playable on a pi3. If you need good performance all over the board, high resolutions, texture packs and filters use a pc. If you need accurate emulation you need a high end machine and an emulator like paraLLEI.

dankcushions

@jamesbeat said in Try Retropie on a PC!:

That does look ok, but those games aren't really a good yardstick - I have a five year old cellphone that can play those games

The problem is games like Perfect Dark and Goldeneye.

but you've been talking in general terms about n64 emulation. if what you actually mean is "i don't think the raspberry pi is good enough to run two games" (and hard to emulate ones at that), then that's a separate conversation.

If you can show me those running well with no stuttering or slowdown and at a high resolution, then I will break the seal on my Pi.
As it stands, moving from my PC setup to the Pi would be a step down.

of course! it will always be a step down! the pi3 is equivalent to, what, a pentium 2 or 3? the gpu is approximately the worst gpu you can buy. what the pi is is a very cheap, small device, and n64 on the pi is yet to mature.

jamesbeat

@gizmo98
Very true, in fact I was reading an article just last night which explained why you need at least a 3Ghz processor to perform cycle-accurate emulation of the SNES.

I'm still half tempted to break the seal on my Pi 3 just because I wanted so badly to house it in a PlayStation, but my head is telling me to bide my time and use the PC until the Pi 4 comes out.
The PC is just so beautifully smooth, it's difficult to justify going to the Pi 3 for something as frivolous as the case I want to use.

jamesbeat

@dankcushions said in Try Retropie on a PC!:

@jamesbeat said in Try Retropie on a PC!:

That does look ok, but those games aren't really a good yardstick - I have a five year old cellphone that can play those games

The problem is games like Perfect Dark and Goldeneye.

but you've been talking in general terms about n64 emulation. if what you actually mean is "i don't think the raspberry pi is good enough to run two games" (and hard to emulate ones at that), then that's a separate conversation.

If you can show me those running well with no stuttering or slowdown and at a high resolution, then I will break the seal on my Pi.
As it stands, moving from my PC setup to the Pi would be a step down.

of course! it will always be a step down! the pi3 is equivalent to, what, a pentium 2 or 3? the gpu is approximately the worst gpu you can buy. what the pi is is a very cheap, small device, and n64 on the pi is yet to mature.

I don't think it's fair to say that the Pi will always be a step down.
If your goal is to emulate up to the N64, then once there is a powerful enough Pi to do the job, there would be no point using a more powerful machine.

Of course, if your goal is always going to be to add more and more power hungry emulators, there can be no end to how much power you will need, and the Pi will always be a step behind a PC.

jamesbeat

@dankcushions said in Try Retropie on a PC!:

@jamesbeat said in Try Retropie on a PC!:

That does look ok, but those games aren't really a good yardstick - I have a five year old cellphone that can play those games

The problem is games like Perfect Dark and Goldeneye.

but you've been talking in general terms about n64 emulation. if what you actually mean is "i don't think the raspberry pi is good enough to run two games" (and hard to emulate ones at that), then that's a separate conversation.

If you can show me those running well with no stuttering or slowdown and at a high resolution, then I will break the seal on my Pi.
As it stands, moving from my PC setup to the Pi would be a step down.

of course! it will always be a step down! the pi3 is equivalent to, what, a pentium 2 or 3? the gpu is approximately the worst gpu you can buy. what the pi is is a very cheap, small device, and n64 on the pi is yet to mature.

Talking of which, check out my new paperweights that I salvaged out of some old PC's at work:
https://s10.postimg.org/mc3efgwyh/IMAG0123.jpg

That's a Pentium II and Pentium III - the pcb's that they are mounted on are larger than a Raspberry Pi.
Just shows how far we have come...

BuZz

@jamesbeat said in Try Retropie on a PC!:

I'm still half tempted to break the seal on my Pi 3 just because I wanted so badly to house it in a PlayStation, but my head is telling me to bide my time and use the PC until the Pi 4 comes out.

I don't know why this is such a hard decision for such a cheap device - surely just use the rpi3 now, and then upgrade it later ? The RPI3 is still excellent for emulation.

jamesbeat

@BuZz

It's not really the cost, it's just that there's really no point having two Retropie machines in my house.
I don't have a TV in my bedroom or anywhere else I would use it, so that would mean having both consoles hooked up to one TV.
I need the PC for N64, so why not just use it for everything?

I did have a Pi in my arcade cabinet, but I also upgraded that to a PC, so there's really nowhere for the Pi to go.
It may be cheap, but it would still be a waste of money to open it if I don't have a use for it.

dankcushions

@jamesbeat said in Try Retropie on a PC!:

I don't think it's fair to say that the Pi will always be a step down.
If your goal is to emulate up to the N64, then once there is a powerful enough Pi to do the job, there would be no point using a more powerful machine.

so you don't believe in software improvements? just throw better hardware at the problem? boo!

of course I meant the current pi models. however right now it's using the best GPU that arm CPUs have so there doesn't seem to be an obvious hardware upgrade coming. a better CPU is meaningless for n64.

besides, at that point either everyone will be wanting the parallel n64 plugin (which needs a MONSTER GPU and system), and/or something that runs at 4K resolutions on their new TVs :)

jamesbeat

Of course I believe in software improvements, and I'm sure that the N64 emulators will improve on the Pi 3 to the point that it could run the games I want at an acceptable clip.
However, why set up the Pi and wait for improvements when the PC I already have runs them really well?

Of course more optimized code is a better solution, but if throwing more powerful hardware at the problem works today, why not use it as a stopgap?

Also, something we haven't touched on yet, what about other emulators for more recent systems?
I haven't tried any emulators past N64 and PSX, but what about the Saturn, Dreamcast, PSP etc? Retropie supports them, but I bet they don't run on the Pi 3.

edmaul69

@jamesbeat i have 1 tv i game on but 3 pi systems. I did one with a playstation myself. I enjoy making a modified pi systems and have done quite a few of them. There is great joy in just making one. If you want to make a playstation pi just do it. The build is the fun part. If you decide to build one feel free to ask me any questions you might have. And for inspiration here is mine. I reused the sony composite output as well as hdmi. I event made the io port house a usb port.

https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/2583/my-sony-pistation-1-and-super-mario-bros-zero-cart

chavatar

@jamesbeat You're going to wait a long time before a Pi bests your current PC. I kind of felt what you'd really like is more effort from the team for other platforms...say..for example....a PC.

I've been truly gobsmacked that a £30 gadget the size of a pack of cards can do so much, love the way it tries to democratise computing.

Whatever you think, would make a great retro-gaming backup system :)

jamesbeat

@edmaul69
Nice Job on the PSX, better than a couple of others I've seen. Bookmarked.

@chavatar
I'm not necessarily waiting for the Pi to best the PC I'm using. I get the feeling that the PC has a lot more power than I actually need. I'm just waiting for good N64 emulation, especially for Goldeneye and Perfect Dark, which are my wife's favorite games.
My marriage would be in jeopardy if I made her use the Pi 3 in its current state after playing those games on the PC.

Now, before I say this, I would just like to reiterate that I love the Pi, and might even go as far as to call myself a fanboy under certain circumstances.

The Pi doesn't cost 30 quid (sorry, I'm using a US keyboard) or $40 or whatever because of the extra stuff you need to buy to get it working.
Once you buy the psu, the hdmi cable a case, an SD card and probably a usb hub, it costs well over the $50 I paid for my PC (I actually bought it for a different project and had it laying around) and it's probably very easy for most people to get a PC like the one I'm using for free, because it's pretty old and low spec.

I'm not knocking the Pi, I love it, but the barrier of entry is well over 30 quid.
Now, is the price of the Pi and all of the necessary accessories too high? Absolutely not, it's a bargain for what it is, but if you just need a cheap computer, a Pi probably isn't that answer.

I remember when I got my first Pi, and people tried to argue that everyone probably had everything they needed already - who hasn't got an old phone charger laying around?
That led to all sorts of problems, because it turns out that old phone chargers are not powerful enough.

'More Power' became something of a mantra in fact, and many problems that were not psu-related got blamed on inadequate power supplies.
I ended up buying no less than three psu's when I started out because of bad advice. It turned out that the problem I was having (flickering display) was software related, because it went away after an update.

That first Pi cost me north of $100 by the time I had something that worked how I wanted it to.
I actually took my first Pi with me to the range to put a couple of round through it out of frustration, and the only reason I still have it today was because they had a new rule - Paper Targets Only!

gizmo98

@jamesbeat A user works on a ubuntu x86 retropie distribution. https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/3320/retropie-x86/17

We added x86 installation option early this year. We do not provide ready to use images but it should be always possible to update RetroPie-Setup and all available software modules. So there is no big difference if you use retropie on ubuntu on your pc or on the pi.

jamesbeat

@gizmo98
That's great!
I had to install manually, but it was relatively painless. I'd like to try the lighter distro, because Ubuntu is a bit bloated and slow to boot, and it's really not necessary for Retropie.

I'd love to see a Live DVD or flash drive image with an option to install - I think that would really bring Retropie to the masses.
Not everyone has a Pi (or even knows what one is) but I bet there are thousands of retro gamers who have an old PC gathering dust - they could be transformed into retro gaming consoles with a few clicks of a mouse.

The only option currently is Lakka, which is nowhere near as nice as Retropie. I tried it out a couple of weeks ago, and was very disappointed.
My five year old daughter can use Retropie without any help, which is a high praise indeed.

My hope is that one day Retropie will be as ubiquitous as Kodi (formerly XBMC), ie very mainstream, adopted by people who aren't necessarily 'techie' and available for many different architectures.