So whats the opinion on Twin Galaxies here?

SgtJimmyRustles

How can you even verify Mame scores since essentially you COULD cheat in the games using Mame?
Would you just record the whole session?

dankcushions

thing is with mame, you can record, splice and playback gameplay. eg in donkey kong you could record your inputs, and then playback that gameplay until the RNG gives you the maximum barrel bonus. you can also splice together your best performances of each stage. etc etc.

so i would say the only way to get a verifiable score would be to record the player's hand at the controls, and the gameplay in the same shot. even then, you could comp the two shots together. it's a minefield...

SgtJimmyRustles

@dankcushions said in So whats the opinion on Twin Galaxies here?:

thing is with mame, you can record, splice and playback gameplay. eg in donkey kong you could record your inputs, and then playback that gameplay until the RNG gives you the maximum barrel bonus. you can also splice together your best performances of each stage. etc etc.
so i would say the only way to get a verifiable score would be to record the player's hand at the controls, and the gameplay in the same shot. even then, you could comp the two shots together. it's a minefield...

Yeah, by that argument, unless you're being filmed completely during that time by someone who's verifiable, then Mame scores really shouldn't count.

Clyde

@sgtjimmyrustles said in So whats the opinion on Twin Galaxies here?:

Yeah, by that argument, unless you're being filmed completely during that time by someone who's verifiable, then Mame scores really shouldn't count.

Well, people also argue the validity of different and possibly hacked PCBs, so even those aren't unimpeachable.

caver01

I am just glad Twin Galaxies and other forums exist for this. There has to be some standard by which these achievements are judged and compared and I think it is fantastic that enough enthusiasts exist to moderate these claims. Otherwise, everything is just anecdote vs. suspicion.

Regarding the standards, I was always surprised that anything beyond officially sanctioned and controlled live competitions was acceptable for submitting a high score. The rules for filming a performance are extremely detailed, as they would have to be in order to "prove" the system was legitimate and the performance was real. I guess it would have been easier to host such events during the arcade heyday of the 1980s, so I guess video proof is a modern compromise.

If nothing else, TG and others is a great reference for my own gaming. For example, during MAME ROW for Time Pilot we found out that our high scores were actually pretty admirable considering the best in the world.

Z1mzum

I'm no fan of Twin Galaxies, They removed my own high scores back in the late 90's for apparently cheating. Legit high scores I've earned twice due to being deleted once only to be deleted again. I don't take anything as legitimate with those guys, they where such an "inside" bunch back in the late 90's.

RedBatman

@z1mzum What games did you get high scores in?

Z1mzum

@redbatman Xain'd Sleena and Mr Do, To be honest I'm not that salty about it though I can't take it seriously though I'm sure the majority are legit gamers.

RedBatman

@z1mzum Well I imagine this won't end well for Twin Galaxies though.

RedBatman

For those who want an In depth analysis. Apollo Legend did this.

mediamogul

@redbatman

I was already convinced that he's been using MAME, which, to me personally, just means that his scores need to be posted on another leader board. However, seeing those audio waveform gaps in his videos and the awkwardly staged board swap have me believing this guy's a complete sham. At this point, even if the guy repents, his scores will never be taken seriously again.

RedBatman

@mediamogul A shame really. I thought he was a decent guy.

fabio78

@redbatman “I thought he was a decent guy.“
Really!?!? He’s always, since his first interviews in the ‘80s, come across as an utter scumbag.

mediamogul

@fabio78

You have to look beyond the beard, beyond the tacky ties, beyond the smug sense of self-importance and only there you'll find... no, wait. Just more scumbag. My bad.

Clyde

@fabio78 @mediamogul Coming across as a scumbag says nothing about being honest or not. Court judgements would be so much easier if it were so.

mediamogul

@clyde

I do have to agree. I mean, even with all the bad behavior and poor sportsmanship that's well documented about the guy, I still wouldn't have guessed he'd go to these great lengths to cheat like this.

dankcushions

to be fair to billy, king of kong was basically a pack of lies. i know often documentaries twist the truth for dramatic effect, but but it's crazy how much they invented just so they could make it into a good v evil kind of thing. you can read about it here: http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/1303

i'm sure he is an arsehole, but i'm not sure how many people would be pleasant after that kind of character assassination.

even this dodgy score - bear in mind that he hasn't been in the top 10 for donkey kong for years. that score is from 2010! i think the only reason it had any kind of scrutiny is because of this ongoing vilification of the man that king of kong imagined. that said, if it's dodgy... it's dodgy.

mediamogul

@dankcushions

It's interesting to consider that without whatever amount of embellishment that was added, the documentary wouldn't be as well known, or even fundamentally entertaining. As you say, this is par for the course with the most famous documentaries ever made and I've always been conflicted over it. The very first documentary ever made, 'Nanook of the North', was practically manufactured from whole cloth, right down to the subject's name not even being Nanook.

Another famous account that indirectly relates to retro video-gaming is the 1958 Walt Disney nature documentary, 'White Wilderness', that cemented a myth about lemmings for generations to come that they were prone to mass suicide during migration. While not only false, there have even been accusations that the poor creatures were coaxed into jumping to their deaths by the filmmakers. Most anyone's misconception of these animals can be directly traced back to seeing this documentary in the theater, their schools, or even the Disney Channel up until the mid to late 80s. The belief that this behavior existed of course also inspired the wildly popular 'Lemmings' series of games that persisted throughout the nineties.

I guess it all stems from film-making, even documentary film-making, being a commercial art, with the emphasis being on "commercial". The filmmaker's want to get paid, the audience wants to be entertained and unfortunately, at the crossroads comes compromise. Objectivity, integrity and the baseline truth are all too often sacrificed to simply produce a narrative that's easier to market. I for one was very entertained by the documentary, but it is a shame that it had to come at the expense of the whole truth. All that said, I still have my beliefs that Billy's a real piece of work and the level of dishonesty exhibited in his score submissions is appalling. However, you raise a good point that we're dealing with a real guy who is not likely just the black and white, mustache twirling villain portrayed in the doc.

RedBatman

@mediamogul You are right with most documentaries there are some things not entirely accurate.

AndersHP

@caver01 said in So whats the opinion on Twin Galaxies here?:

If nothing else, TG and others is a great reference for my own gaming. For example, during MAME ROW for Time Pilot we found out that our high scores were actually pretty admirable considering the best in the world.

I love that you bring this up, mate :-)