How to config 8-way rotary joystick games? (Ikaris, Forgotten Worlds etc)

MortalWombat

'Sup players, posting to see who had any experience/success w/ configuring any 8-way rotary joystick games?

For those who don't recall what that refers to, there was a limited series of games-- usually action/shooter ones-- that would require the player to twist the joystick itself in 8-directions, so that players could move and face/shoot in different directions at once (other games-- like Robotron and Smash TV-- would do the same thing, but using 2 joysticks, one for moving & another for aiming).

Examples of games that used this setup included the Ikari Warriors series (Ikari Warriors, Victory Road & Ikari III), the Ikari-like Heavy Barrel, Midnight Resistance, Time Soldiers, and Capcom's Forgotten Worlds (see list below):
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=28722.0

Apparently some fans of these games went as far as to buy/make specialized rotary joysticks to play them (some of which are no longer available).

I however remember playing these games using MAME (can't tell you/recall which version) on a desktop computer w/ a mere keyboard to control the action, where the "spinning" function was handled by just 2 buttons, one to turn left, the other to turn right (I think they may have been the "Z" and "X" or "Z" and "A" buttons, but they were definitely/conveniently close to one another).

So what I'm asking is, for anyone familiar with these games, what if any non-hardware-based solutions have you found to play them?? With all the great brains here, has anyone found a way to replicate these commands??

MortalWombat

Sorry to follow-up myself, but as an example, I was trying to play/customize both Forgotten Worlds and Time Soldiers the other day using my Logitech F310 controller (most of these games only involve 1-2 buttons-- one to shoot, the other for a special weapon-- and that's a controller w/ 2 analog thumbsticks & 4 index finger/"trigger" buttons, so I'd like to think there are options to mess around with), but unless I was looking in the wrong menu-- in this case, HotKeys/QuickMenu/Controls-- I couldn't implement any changes.

I mention Forgotten Worlds cuz that was a game included on the original Xbox's Capcom Classics Collection-- whose controllers were similar to the Logitech-- however I don't remember how its controllers executed the "spinning" function in the game (and if my Xbox wasn't out of commission, I'd load the game to try to tell ya :/ ).

MortalWombat

Hey, hate to ask, but ANYONE here a fan of these type of games that have noticed a fix/configuration for this issue of being unable to rotate your character?

In the meantime, @barbudreadmon did share this amazing spreadsheet of @roslof 's with me, and on it, I noticed that Ikaris Warriors, one of these games, seems already configured for these commands, w/ the L/R trigger buttons on the ikari.zip (US JAMMA) version for FBA allowing your character to spin.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rq4shU1RUSdcc7cTVWeORMD-mcO6BwXwQ7TGw8f5_zw/edit#gid=0

So, I tested some different versions of some of these games:

Battle Field, a Japanese Clone of Time Soldiers for FBA (btlfield.zip) was also already configured to use the L/R buttons to rotate your character.
*Lost Worlds, a Japanese Clone of Forgotten Worlds for FBA (lostwrld.zip) let you rotate your character w/the A/B buttons (which on my Logitech F310 would normally be primary buttons used for shooting etc), w/the R trigger instead being set as the shooting button (not very convenient), but the character kept slowly, constantly rotating even if you weren't pressing anything, which was a real hassle.
*Heavy Barrel (hbarrel.zip, hbarrelw.zip) seemingly wouldn't work for FBA (just MAME2003), and still wouldn't allow you to rotate at all.

So what I'm wondering is, could this pre-set to operate your character be based on using one emulator vs. the other (in which case FBA had the advantage), or simply due to using different versions of these games?

Whatever the case, I'd like to think that there's a way to configure the controls for these games (and others like them) regardless of which emulator or rom you're using?

Seriously, any insight/configuration help would be really appreciated. Thank you all.

barbudreadmon

@mortalwombat said in How to config 8-way rotary joystick games? (Ikaris, Forgotten Worlds etc):

So what I'm wondering is, could this pre-set to operate your character be based on using one emulator vs. the other (in which case FBA had the advantage), or simply due to using different versions of these games?

No, it's just how i mapped those games in FBNeo.

For Lost world, i ended up mapping it like this because there are 2 rotation mecanisms :

one analog that i mapped to right analog stick, which is why i mapped shooting button to triggers since using A/B at the same time as right analog is not convenient
one digital that i ended up mapping to A/B

I'll leave default mapping like this, but you can remap it to your liking through Quick Menu > Controls. Also, if your character is always slowly rotating, i suspect your right analog to be faulty, so maybe try to set an analog deadzone in retroarch settings.

Heavy Barrel works in FBNeo, i remember it used to crash on rpi due to simd misalignment but i fixed this years ago. Maybe you are using fbalpha2012 ? It's quite confusing since you keep saying "FBA". If you are using FBNeo then you got a bad romset.

MortalWombat

@barbudreadmon can't tell ya how much I appreciate your response here-- if there were a way I could send ya an e-six pack, I would-- altho it does bring up other questions! Heh

First thing's first, checking the games where the rotate function works in Final Burn Neo's (v0.2.97.44 7b74a22 1.8.8) Quick Menu/Controls, I noticed that there IS a listing for these specific commands that ISN'T there if I try playing these games on another emulator (like outta Arcade/the mame2003 default).

Case in point, in Lost World (Japan)'s Controls, I see a "Turn - (digital)" and "Attack" option, for Time Soldiers (US Rev 3), it lists a Rotate Left, Rotate Right, and Button 3 (Rotate) options. However when I go to Quick Menu/Controls for these games on mame2003, the options are just Insert Coin, Start, Joystick Up, Down, Left & Right, and Buttons 1-10... no mention of Rotate, Attack etc. So that's why I wondered if the difference depended on which emulator one was using or which ROM?? (oddly enough though, however I try reassigning these Controls in FBNeo, they don't seem to retain when I restart the game-- even tho I'm given a "Core Remap File Loaded" notice when it does-- so I must've saved it wrong??).

But I did try DL'ing and playing a few more of these Rotary games in FBNeo, and in several of them--Midnight Resistance (World), Guerilla War (US) & Bermuda Triangle (World?)-- the rotate function seemed to work right away, assigned to the L/R triggers. Two games however that were implied to be rotary--Gondomania (US) and Ikari 3 (World, 8-Way Joystick)-- either didn't allow you to rotate, or just rotated you in the direction you were facing.

Unfortunately I still haven't managed to find ROMs for Forgotten Worlds (World) or Heavy Barrel that load for FBNeo; on the site I usually DL from, I tried 3 for each-- MAME, MAME 0.139U1 & MAME 0.3785 for FW, & MAME, MAME 0.139u1 & MAME 0.37b5 for HB-- and none would load (although chances are there's either more ROMs for these games that I'm not aware of, and these are either all bad, or just weren't designed to work w/FBNeo; lately I've just been searching for the exact xxx.zip listed on Roslof's Compatibility chart & try to narrow those down to a functional ROM...).

But yeah, re the Lost Worlds perpetual rotation-- which seems to be a bigger issue to resolve another time-- I have posted before about doubts about this controller, so that wouldn't surprise me. I did take a brief look at Retroarch and couldn't seem to find where/how to enable a deadzone, though ideally that'd be a last resort (because unless I'm mistaken, wouldn't setting a deadzone in Retroarch cause that joystick to become inactive on all games...?)

Anyway, thank you yet again, it is sincerely and greatly appreciated.

barbudreadmon

@mortalwombat said in How to config 8-way rotary joystick games? (Ikaris, Forgotten Worlds etc):

Final Burn Neo's (v0.2.97.44 7b74a22 1.8.8)

Be aware that it's an old version, you might want to use the retropie_setup script to update the core from sources in the future.

@mortalwombat said in How to config 8-way rotary joystick games? (Ikaris, Forgotten Worlds etc):

even tho I'm given a "Core Remap File Loaded" notice when it does-- so I must've saved it wrong??)

With how mapping is so different from a game to another, you should probably use "Save Game Remap File" instead of "Save Core Remap File" for FBNeo, it might also be why it doesn't work properly when you use "core remap" (?)

@mortalwombat said in How to config 8-way rotary joystick games? (Ikaris, Forgotten Worlds etc):

Two games however that were implied to be rotary--Gondomania (US) and Ikari 3 (World, 8-Way Joystick)-- either didn't allow you to rotate, or just rotated you in the direction you were facing.

I'll take a look at those 2 later today

@mortalwombat said in How to config 8-way rotary joystick games? (Ikaris, Forgotten Worlds etc):

Unfortunately I still haven't managed to find ROMs for Forgotten Worlds (World) or Heavy Barrel that load for FBNeo; on the site I usually DL from, I tried 3 for each-- MAME, MAME 0.139U1 & MAME 0.3785 for FW, & MAME, MAME 0.139u1 & MAME 0.37b5 for HB

FBNeo is using latest known romsets, meaning normally the same romsets as MAME 0.227 at the time i write those lines.

@mortalwombat said in How to config 8-way rotary joystick games? (Ikaris, Forgotten Worlds etc):

I did take a brief look at Retroarch and couldn't seem to find where/how to enable a deadzone, though ideally that'd be a last resort (because unless I'm mistaken, wouldn't setting a deadzone in Retroarch cause that joystick to become inactive on all games...?)

It should be at Settings > Input > Analog Deadzone, and no it won't prevent the analog from working, it'll just ignore that analog's input if it's below the threshold you set (values go from 0.0 to 1.0, which means 0% to 100%), values 0.1/0.2/0.3 are probably good to try, above i recommend you trash that controller because it's way too broken.

barbudreadmon

@barbudreadmon so :

gondo and gondou are ok here, when you press L/R player's arm is rotating, allowing you to shoot in all directions, maybe that's because your fbneo version is too old or something ? or maybe that come from that core override you did ? (i really recommend avoiding those with fbneo)
ikari3aka "Ikari III - The Rescue (8-Way Joystick)" don't use rotary joystick, the one with rotary joystick support through L/R is its clone ikari3u aka "Ikari III - The Rescue (US, Rotary Joystick)" (well, actually, several clones have rotary joystick support, so you can try them all and use the one you prefer)

MortalWombat

@barbudreadmon Appreciate yet another informative reply, sadly didn't get to address everything you brought up yet (specifically the Deadzone issue, which I hope to examine tmrrw).

Re: the ROM controls configuration using the Quick Menu, I DID actually try the Save Game Remap File as you advised, and the controls STILL don't seem to be saving (they're listed as what I set them to when I reload the ROM, but the configuration is still what it used to be). Any other fixes to make sure that they stay?? I may try creating a separate post to clarify tomorrow worst case...

And going one step further into the Quick Menu/Controls menu, any idea why the configuration for the ROM of one game would give more specifics than the ROM on another? (specifically, why Lost Worlds (Japan) listed "Attack" and "Turn" options, while Forgotten Worlds (World) just listed Insert Coin, Start, Joystick Up etc and a bunch of buttons?). I'm not sure if it's because of how the ROMs themselves are programmed/configured, but ideally, I'd like to be able to configure the ROMs for these English language games, if only so my guests and I can understand the menus while playing them…

Side note, do you have a link you can share on how to update my version of FinalBurnNeo, if as you say it is indeed outdated?? And I assume that'll update it as a default emulator? (since ultimately, I'd like to move everything that I have in my FBA folder over to the Arcade folder and adjust the emulators for individual games as needed).

As far as specific ROMs are concerned, I did DL/compared both the ikari3 and ikari3u ROMs and can see now that the "8-way Joystick" ROM option is MUCH less of a hassle to play, so I'm considering that choice resolved. ;)

Re: Gondomania-- and the gondo and gondou zips you mentioned, I hate to say it, but I actually Googled/looked for that gondou one-- and I wasn't entirely sure if you were implying that it was necessary to have both to enable the L/R rotation function?? Roslof's spreadsheet lists a makyosen clone-- and couldn't find it anywhere (in fact the spreadsheet lists it as (makyosen)(gondou), implying that they're the same thing). Is there another ROM I need to find-- or another emulator that I should try playing it on-- to enable the L/R rotate function??

Lastly, I wasn't entirely sure what you meant when you mentioned MAME 0.227 in association w/ FBNeo. Am I to infer that all of those ROMs I listed are outdated (or at least, not optimally synced w/ FBNeo), and that's why the L/R rotate function doesn't seem to be a default for any version of Heavy Barrel or Forgotten Worlds?

MortalWombat

Replying to my own comment here, because I'd managed to get another game to work/noticed an issue with another that I still have yet to get working, and didn't want this topic to die before I'd figured out a solution:

• Regarding Heavy Barrel (both the hbarrel.zip & hbarrelw.zip versions): it seems that the inability to rotate in the game (and likely other games) is indeed ROM/emulator-related, i.e., if you try running it on Mame2003, your character won't rotate. When I tried running both versions on Mame2010, your character can (unfortunately-- for anyone else who stumbles across this topic, but I do recommend just trying to find the latest romset-- I can't tell you if that's Mame 0.139u1, Mame 0.37b5, or plain Mame version, I can update when I know).

• Regarding Forgotten Worlds (forgottn.zip, World version), I've found that the MAME 0.139u1/MAME4Droid ROM works using Mame2010, allowing your character to rotate using the L/R buttons.

• Regarding Gondomania (gondo.zip, US version), the Mame 0.139u1/Mame4Droid version seems to work, allowing your character to rotate with the L/R buttons when using it on Mame2000 or Mame2010. However, this only seems to allow you to shoot your special weapons in these directions (knives, axes, etc).

TBH, I'd never really played this game before, so maybe there are fans of the game here who can confirm that is indeed supposed to be the case, who knows. Since it does (at least if the 1st level is any indication) seem to be an overhead flying shooter in the spirit of 1941-1943 where you're constantly moving forward-- and most of those types of games just allow you to shoot forward anyway-- it frankly doesn't seem that critical to be able to shoot sideways/backwards at something you've already passed, but what the hell do I know.

• Xybots also involves a rotation function (unlike Gondomania, since this is a first-person maze game, being able to turn, look, shoot etc at where you're going is kinda important). The xybots.zip (rev 2 version) Mame 0.139u1/Mame4Droid ROM works. If you run it on Mame2010, you can rotate using the L/R buttons (if using lr-fbneo, the primary buttons-- X & B on my Logitech F310-- seem to do so instead).

barbudreadmon

@mortalwombat said in How to config 8-way rotary joystick games? (Ikaris, Forgotten Worlds etc):

The game wouldn't load on lr-fbneo, neocd, mame2010, 2015 & 2016

And that'll keep happening as long as you don't match the romset version with the emulator you are using. Tbh i've been completely lost when reading your last post, thinking "that guy should start by reading retropie documentation about arcade, most of this is covered", hence why i became too lazy to keep giving detailled answers.

MortalWombat

@barbudreadmon well then good news, I edited my last post after getting all the games working via trial & error, so you can read it, or not. Been real either way.

Yes, this was doing it the hard way.

Yes, it likely WOULD have been quite a bit quicker/easier if I'd just downloaded a 20gb romset of hundreds of games instead of individually DL'ing and testing some 5-6 (which I'll probably try instead moving forward).

Yes, I definitely don't recommend my cockamamie approach, especially because all these games and their controls could/will likely change with the next emulator upgrade. Hopefully, I'll have moved on to other games by then (or will just have less time on my hands, and will conveniently/more sensibly opt for the romset approach).

Just glad I didn't have to set a controller deadzone (for now, at least...).

barbudreadmon

@mortalwombat said in How to config 8-way rotary joystick games? (Ikaris, Forgotten Worlds etc):

MAME 0.139u1/MAME4Droid ROM works using Mame2010

mame2010 is the port of MAME 0.139u1/MAME4Droid to libretro, so that's expected

@mortalwombat said in How to config 8-way rotary joystick games? (Ikaris, Forgotten Worlds etc):

Regarding Gondomania (gondo.zip, US version), the Mame 0.139u1/Mame4Droid version seems to work, allowing your character to rotate with the L/R buttons when using it on Mame2000 or Mame2010. However, this only seems to allow you to shoot your special weapons in these directions (knives, axes, etc).

I know emulation of this game had major emulation fixes recently (because its MCU was finally dumped in 2020, 22 years after the game was first wrongly "emulated" with the dumps available), but i don't know how broken it previously was since i never played it before that redump. Anyway, only MAME (current) and FBNeo will allow you to play this game as it was intended, using the dumps from 2020. Afaik, the main shoot is the one rotating.