Pi Zero 2 released

Brunnis

I've been testing my Zero 2 with a few SNES games and I am a bit suprised of the poor performance in Star Fox. I know it's a SuperFX game, but performance seems to be worse than I remember it from back around 2016-2017 when I was testing a lot with my Pi 3. Running RetroPie on a 1080p display using either FKMS or KMS, the Star Fox intro scene when the Arwing fly through the tunnel gives very noticeable audio crackling. Even overclocking the Zero 2 to the same clock frequency as the Pi 3, i.e. 1.2 GHz, does not fully solve the problem. Combining the overclock with lowering the resolution to 720p does seem to get it to run at 60 FPS without issues.

This makes me wonder though... Does anyone know if anything has changed in the past few years that affected performance in any significant way? In my old Pi 3 testing, I could run at 1080p and no overclocking and it would handle Star Fox perfectly fine. Even with threaded video disabled and using the KMS video driver. Do you have any ideas, @mitu or @dankcushions ?

All testing done on snes9x2010, by the way.

EDIT: It seems it will work without audio crackling at 1.2 GHz, 1080p with threaded video enabled. As I mentioned above, I believe threaded video could be disabled in this game a few years ago.

dankcushions

@brunnis i've no idea i'm afraid - haven't played it and don't have a pi3 anymore :( @Darksavior may know - I believe they mentioned this game before.

whilst the zero 2 is sort of a slightly downclocked pi3, i wonder if the cache/memory etc are clocked the same? would be curious to know all the various frequencies it reports. core/memory overclocks often gave good results with the pi3 so it could be crucial.

Brunnis

@dankcushions Thanks. I know at least the core clock is the same as the Pi 3 (400 MHz). Need to check the V3D default, but I did try setting it to 500 MHz and it did not improve the situation. The reviews I've read indicate memory performance is more or less the same as the Pi 3.

There could of course be lots of things affecting performance over the years. There's RetroArch itself, the emulator and even firmware/kernel/driver changes. Would be interesting to try some older builds on my Pi 3. Not sure I'm willing to really deep dive into this, though. Might just have to accept that things have changed. 😛

dankcushions

@brunnis one thing to confirm is if you're using audio_driver = alsathread - i'm not sure what setup you're running - it should always be alsathread by default for pi0-3, but I would double check in the RGUI. but yeah, as you say it could be down to all manner of updates since then...

Brunnis

@dankcushions Yep, using alsathread, so that's unfortunately not the issue.

EDIT: If I get some time over the next week or so, I might actually try a couple of old images to try to get a good understanding of exactly how much performance has deteriorated. Shouldn't be all that much work.

stuartiannaylor

@dankcushions

You need a magic shim as been playing with the OC and found used two 15mm x 2mm copper shims so I could get a bigger heatsink to fit over the HDMI (20mm not much bigger but a bit more chunkier)

arm_freq=1400
over_voltage=6
sdram_freq=500
core_freq=500
v3d_freq=400
h264_freq=400
isp_freq=400

Seems to be stable but maybe if cpu is not as effective as core_freq and v3d_freq then arm_freq=1300 over_voltage=4 might be OK.

Typically after not finding a 3mm shim so it does have clearance soon as I ordered then found a 3mm copper shim.
The copper does seem to be like magic as could not get much above 1300 before

Brunnis

Interesting that Raspberry Pi OS based on Debian Bullseye was just released. Might give it a test run with a manual installation of RetroPie (though I'm guessing some things may be broken). I wonder what Mesa version they've included... (EDIT: It's Mesa 20.3.5) The KMS driver is apparently the default now.

stuartiannaylor

@brunnis Dunno but worth a try with the last image just got a GLmark2 onscreen score of 141 so see if it improves with new?

stuartiannaylor

@brunnis Confused as maybe because I did a raspi-config but glmark2 reporting the renderer is llvmpipe

Try again I guess and leave raspi-config alone, nope llvmpipe is now default.

I would go onto the forum and get some info but got thrown off yesterday for saying replying to obvious troll spam and comparing a Pi against a Shield Pro TV was stupid.
They have even blocked my IP such a crock they reply to obvious troll spam and kick users who tell them so... !
I have 2x Zero2 but sort of stuffed without simple support like the forum.

https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=323130

mitu

@stuartiannaylor You're getting offtopic here and bashing other forums - which try to provide support for all sorts of users - is not welcomed. If you registered here just because you've been blocked/banned in the RPI forums, I don't think is going to be much help - we're not a general RPI support forum.

Brunnis

Just a heads-up for those experimenting with the new Raspberry Pi OS Bullseye release on the Zero 2: From what I can tell, the Zero 2 does not get any hardware accelerated graphics right now. The print-out below is from a fresh and fully updated Raspberry Pi OS desktop installation.

pi@raspberrypi:~ $ glxinfo -B
name of display: :0
display: :0  screen: 0
direct rendering: Yes
Extended renderer info (GLX_MESA_query_renderer):
    Vendor: Mesa/X.org (0xffffffff)
    Device: llvmpipe (LLVM 11.0.1, 128 bits) (0xffffffff)
    Version: 20.3.5
    Accelerated: no
    Video memory: 427MB
    Unified memory: no
    Preferred profile: core (0x1)
    Max core profile version: 4.5
    Max compat profile version: 3.1
    Max GLES1 profile version: 1.1
    Max GLES[23] profile version: 3.2
OpenGL vendor string: Mesa/X.org
OpenGL renderer string: llvmpipe (LLVM 11.0.1, 128 bits)
OpenGL core profile version string: 4.5 (Core Profile) Mesa 20.3.5
OpenGL core profile shading language version string: 4.50
OpenGL core profile context flags: (none)
OpenGL core profile profile mask: core profile

OpenGL version string: 3.1 Mesa 20.3.5
OpenGL shading language version string: 1.40
OpenGL context flags: (none)

OpenGL ES profile version string: OpenGL ES 3.2 Mesa 20.3.5
OpenGL ES profile shading language version string: OpenGL ES GLSL ES 3.20

stuartiannaylor

@brunnis Cheers as I am say and no I didn't join just to bash other forums, I can not get other info because of what I think is a stupid ban, but hey.
I joined to give RetroPi a bit of an OC then Bullseye turned up, so if anyone fancies posting and asking on the raspberry forum please do, hence why I said.
I guess I am still smarting at the inconvenience, but if someone will ask as I can not.

I wonder if its the GPU memory as guess the default is 64Mb on the Z2.
I think gpu_mem= may have to be =256 currently but seems to kill the boot

Anyone know which Pi's work with hardware acceleration P3b? Or is it just the Pi4 at the moment?
P3b also = llvmpipe
Pi400 = Mesa 20.3.5
glmark2 on the pi400 is 234 which from memory think is a reasonable bump but maybe things need >=2gb as noticed the dma (coherent_pool) was set to 1gb for all

So going back to the old buster image with fakekms initialised in raspi-config

Default clocks Z2

=======================================================
    glmark2 2021.02
=======================================================
    OpenGL Information
    GL_VENDOR:     Broadcom
    GL_RENDERER:   VC4 V3D 2.1
    GL_VERSION:    2.1 Mesa 19.3.2
=======================================================
[build] use-vbo=false: FPS: 99 FrameTime: 10.101 ms
[build] use-vbo=true: FPS: 102 FrameTime: 9.804 ms
[texture] texture-filter=nearest: FPS: 108 FrameTime: 9.259 ms
[texture] texture-filter=linear: FPS: 107 FrameTime: 9.346 ms
[texture] texture-filter=mipmap: FPS: 103 FrameTime: 9.709 ms
[shading] shading=gouraud: FPS: 91 FrameTime: 10.989 ms
[shading] shading=blinn-phong-inf: FPS: 88 FrameTime: 11.364 ms
[shading] shading=phong: FPS: 88 FrameTime: 11.364 ms
[shading] shading=cel: FPS: 91 FrameTime: 10.989 ms
[bump] bump-render=high-poly: FPS: 57 FrameTime: 17.544 ms
[bump] bump-render=normals: FPS: 112 FrameTime: 8.929 ms
[bump] bump-render=height: FPS: 109 FrameTime: 9.174 ms
[effect2d] kernel=0,1,0;1,-4,1;0,1,0;: FPS: 88 FrameTime: 11.364 ms
[effect2d] kernel=1,1,1,1,1;1,1,1,1,1;1,1,1,1,1;: FPS: 69 FrameTime: 14.493 ms
[pulsar] light=false:quads=5:texture=false: FPS: 103 FrameTime: 9.709 ms
[desktop] blur-radius=5:effect=blur:passes=1:separable=true:windows=4: FPS: 42 FrameTime: 23.810 ms
[desktop] effect=shadow:windows=4: FPS: 83 FrameTime: 12.048 ms
[buffer] columns=200:interleave=false:update-dispersion=0.9:update-fraction=0.5:update-method=map: FPS: 52 FrameTime: 19.231 ms
[buffer] columns=200:interleave=false:update-dispersion=0.9:update-fraction=0.5:update-method=subdata: FPS: 51 FrameTime: 19.608 ms
[buffer] columns=200:interleave=true:update-dispersion=0.9:update-fraction=0.5:update-method=map: FPS: 69 FrameTime: 14.493 ms
[ideas] speed=duration: FPS: 101 FrameTime: 9.901 ms
[jellyfish] <default>: FPS: 82 FrameTime: 12.195 ms
[terrain] <default>: FPS: 6 FrameTime: 166.667 ms
[shadow] <default>: FPS: 67 FrameTime: 14.925 ms
[refract] <default>: FPS: 16 FrameTime: 62.500 ms
[conditionals] fragment-steps=0:vertex-steps=0: FPS: 107 FrameTime: 9.346 ms
[conditionals] fragment-steps=5:vertex-steps=0: FPS: 56 FrameTime: 17.857 ms
[conditionals] fragment-steps=0:vertex-steps=5: FPS: 107 FrameTime: 9.346 ms
[function] fragment-complexity=low:fragment-steps=5: FPS: 106 FrameTime: 9.434 ms
[function] fragment-complexity=medium:fragment-steps=5: FPS: 44 FrameTime: 22.727 ms
[loop] fragment-loop=false:fragment-steps=5:vertex-steps=5: FPS: 105 FrameTime: 9.524 ms
[loop] fragment-steps=5:fragment-uniform=false:vertex-steps=5: FPS: 105 FrameTime: 9.524 ms
[loop] fragment-steps=5:fragment-uniform=true:vertex-steps=5: FPS: 77 FrameTime: 12.987 ms
=======================================================
                                  glmark2 Score: 81 
=======================================================

Z2 v3d_freq=400 (Guess dropped to 300 due to heat? As no volt bumps seems needed)

=======================================================
    glmark2 2021.02
=======================================================
    OpenGL Information
    GL_VENDOR:     Broadcom
    GL_RENDERER:   VC4 V3D 2.1
    GL_VERSION:    2.1 Mesa 19.3.2
=======================================================
[build] use-vbo=false: FPS: 105 FrameTime: 9.524 ms
[build] use-vbo=true: FPS: 110 FrameTime: 9.091 ms
[texture] texture-filter=nearest: FPS: 118 FrameTime: 8.475 ms
[texture] texture-filter=linear: FPS: 115 FrameTime: 8.696 ms
[texture] texture-filter=mipmap: FPS: 111 FrameTime: 9.009 ms
[shading] shading=gouraud: FPS: 98 FrameTime: 10.204 ms
[shading] shading=blinn-phong-inf: FPS: 97 FrameTime: 10.309 ms
[shading] shading=phong: FPS: 96 FrameTime: 10.417 ms
[shading] shading=cel: FPS: 98 FrameTime: 10.204 ms
[bump] bump-render=high-poly: FPS: 63 FrameTime: 15.873 ms
[bump] bump-render=normals: FPS: 123 FrameTime: 8.130 ms
[bump] bump-render=height: FPS: 120 FrameTime: 8.333 ms
[effect2d] kernel=0,1,0;1,-4,1;0,1,0;: FPS: 99 FrameTime: 10.101 ms
[effect2d] kernel=1,1,1,1,1;1,1,1,1,1;1,1,1,1,1;: FPS: 80 FrameTime: 12.500 ms
[pulsar] light=false:quads=5:texture=false: FPS: 115 FrameTime: 8.696 ms
[desktop] blur-radius=5:effect=blur:passes=1:separable=true:windows=4: FPS: 47 FrameTime: 21.277 ms
[desktop] effect=shadow:windows=4: FPS: 94 FrameTime: 10.638 ms
[buffer] columns=200:interleave=false:update-dispersion=0.9:update-fraction=0.5:update-method=map: FPS: 53 FrameTime: 18.868 ms
[buffer] columns=200:interleave=false:update-dispersion=0.9:update-fraction=0.5:update-method=subdata: FPS: 52 FrameTime: 19.231 ms
[buffer] columns=200:interleave=true:update-dispersion=0.9:update-fraction=0.5:update-method=map: FPS: 71 FrameTime: 14.085 ms
[ideas] speed=duration: FPS: 113 FrameTime: 8.850 ms
[jellyfish] <default>: FPS: 94 FrameTime: 10.638 ms
[terrain] <default>: FPS: 7 FrameTime: 142.857 ms
[shadow] <default>: FPS: 71 FrameTime: 14.085 ms
[refract] <default>: FPS: 17 FrameTime: 58.824 ms
[conditionals] fragment-steps=0:vertex-steps=0: FPS: 121 FrameTime: 8.264 ms
[conditionals] fragment-steps=5:vertex-steps=0: FPS: 66 FrameTime: 15.152 ms
[conditionals] fragment-steps=0:vertex-steps=5: FPS: 121 FrameTime: 8.264 ms
[function] fragment-complexity=low:fragment-steps=5: FPS: 117 FrameTime: 8.547 ms
[function] fragment-complexity=medium:fragment-steps=5: FPS: 54 FrameTime: 18.519 ms
[loop] fragment-loop=false:fragment-steps=5:vertex-steps=5: FPS: 117 FrameTime: 8.547 ms
[loop] fragment-steps=5:fragment-uniform=false:vertex-steps=5: FPS: 119 FrameTime: 8.403 ms
[loop] fragment-steps=5:fragment-uniform=true:vertex-steps=5: FPS: 90 FrameTime: 11.111 ms
=======================================================
                                  glmark2 Score: 90 
=======================================================

Which is interesting as running on a Pi3A+ I got glmark2 Score: 79
v3d_freq=400 core_freq=500 seems to make no difference glmark2 Score: 90? Thought core_freq would but seems just v3d_freq
arm_freq=1400 over_voltage=6 to equal the pi3A+ again makes no glmark diff but expected

v3d_freq=400 sdram_freq=550

=======================================================
    glmark2 2021.02
=======================================================
    OpenGL Information
    GL_VENDOR:     Broadcom
    GL_RENDERER:   VC4 V3D 2.1
    GL_VERSION:    2.1 Mesa 19.3.2
=======================================================
[build] use-vbo=false: FPS: 113 FrameTime: 8.850 ms
[build] use-vbo=true: FPS: 116 FrameTime: 8.621 ms
[texture] texture-filter=nearest: FPS: 123 FrameTime: 8.130 ms
[texture] texture-filter=linear: FPS: 122 FrameTime: 8.197 ms
[texture] texture-filter=mipmap: FPS: 117 FrameTime: 8.547 ms
[shading] shading=gouraud: FPS: 101 FrameTime: 9.901 ms
[shading] shading=blinn-phong-inf: FPS: 99 FrameTime: 10.101 ms
[shading] shading=phong: FPS: 101 FrameTime: 9.901 ms
[shading] shading=cel: FPS: 101 FrameTime: 9.901 ms
[bump] bump-render=high-poly: FPS: 64 FrameTime: 15.625 ms
[bump] bump-render=normals: FPS: 129 FrameTime: 7.752 ms
[bump] bump-render=height: FPS: 126 FrameTime: 7.937 ms
[effect2d] kernel=0,1,0;1,-4,1;0,1,0;: FPS: 102 FrameTime: 9.804 ms
[effect2d] kernel=1,1,1,1,1;1,1,1,1,1;1,1,1,1,1;: FPS: 82 FrameTime: 12.195 ms
[pulsar] light=false:quads=5:texture=false: FPS: 119 FrameTime: 8.403 ms
[desktop] blur-radius=5:effect=blur:passes=1:separable=true:windows=4: FPS: 49 FrameTime: 20.408 ms
[desktop] effect=shadow:windows=4: FPS: 100 FrameTime: 10.000 ms
[buffer] columns=200:interleave=false:update-dispersion=0.9:update-fraction=0.5:update-method=map: FPS: 66 FrameTime: 15.152 ms
[buffer] columns=200:interleave=false:update-dispersion=0.9:update-fraction=0.5:update-method=subdata: FPS: 65 FrameTime: 15.385 ms
[buffer] columns=200:interleave=true:update-dispersion=0.9:update-fraction=0.5:update-method=map: FPS: 83 FrameTime: 12.048 ms
[ideas] speed=duration: FPS: 127 FrameTime: 7.874 ms
[jellyfish] <default>: FPS: 98 FrameTime: 10.204 ms
[terrain] <default>: FPS: 8 FrameTime: 125.000 ms
[shadow] <default>: FPS: 74 FrameTime: 13.514 ms
[refract] <default>: FPS: 17 FrameTime: 58.824 ms
[conditionals] fragment-steps=0:vertex-steps=0: FPS: 125 FrameTime: 8.000 ms
[conditionals] fragment-steps=5:vertex-steps=0: FPS: 69 FrameTime: 14.493 ms
[conditionals] fragment-steps=0:vertex-steps=5: FPS: 125 FrameTime: 8.000 ms
[function] fragment-complexity=low:fragment-steps=5: FPS: 124 FrameTime: 8.065 ms
[function] fragment-complexity=medium:fragment-steps=5: FPS: 56 FrameTime: 17.857 ms
[loop] fragment-loop=false:fragment-steps=5:vertex-steps=5: FPS: 123 FrameTime: 8.130 ms
[loop] fragment-steps=5:fragment-uniform=false:vertex-steps=5: FPS: 123 FrameTime: 8.130 ms
[loop] fragment-steps=5:fragment-uniform=true:vertex-steps=5: FPS: 93 FrameTime: 10.753 ms
=======================================================
                                  glmark2 Score: 95 
=======================================================

Full KMS default clocks seems the same as fake glmark2 Score: 81 also checked core_freq=500 again seems to make no difference ... ?
arm_freq=1400 over_voltage=6 v3d_freq=500 sdram_freq=650 over_voltage_sdram=2 glmark2 Score: 105 was as high as I went, dunno how much glmark2 stresses so how real world will have to see

mitu

@brunnis said in Pi Zero 2 released:

From what I can tell, the Zero 2 does not get any hardware accelerated graphics right now.

This post on the RPI forums seems relevant:

[...]
glamor on pi0-3 actually slows done composition, hence the disable, but unfortunately means that gl from windowed apps (e.g. glxgears) is also disabled.

I encourange anyone experimenting with the new Raspberry Pi OS ('bullseye') to use a separate topic and report their findings.

George Spiggott

Is the Bullseye OS release significant news? Is it worth starting a thread for?

I see a lot of people regarding the Pi Zero 2W as an up/side-grade for the Pi 3A it seems to share a lot of attributes but is smaller and cheaper.

stuartiannaylor

@george-spiggott Z2 can clock same as pi3 but does lack the DSI (display) connector.
So guess if HDMI its ok, not sure how popular DSI is?

Luddo183

@george-spiggott
The Pi Zero 2 is essentially a weakened, shrunk Pi 3. In they way of handhelds and portable projects, it is a godsend, but again, is not a substitute for a good Pi 3.

Brunnis

@george-spiggott said in Pi Zero 2 released:

Is the Bullseye OS release significant news? Is it worth starting a thread for?

Yes, it's significant. The biggest change is that it now defaults to full-KMS for all hardware. It also finally bumps Mesa to a newer, albeit still outdated version (20.3 vs 19.3).

stuartiannaylor

@luddo183 Also only weakened via the DTB frequency definitions as all Pi3's are essentially the same.
The diff between the 3b & 3b+ is purely a redesign of the PCB for thermal distribution that they gave a factory OC.
Same chip though but the Z2 is all ceramic package with a ram sandwich on top, so a bit harder to cool, but they seemed to of done a stellar job with the PCB heat distribution with a much smaller PCB.

https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/config_txt.html#overclocking-options
Has all the settings whilst some of the over_voltage has already been applied to the 3+ so starts at zero again.

The only thing that is puzzling me is that setting v3d_freq=400 on the Z2 so its same as the Pi3's seems to provide 10 more points on the glmark2 score which is good but was expecting the same?

The Raspberry Pi 4 Vulkan Driver "V3DV" Merged Into Mesa 20.3 and don't know if that is ever coming for lesser Pi's

x_Speed

@mitu said in Pi Zero 2 released:

@matchaman said in Pi Zero 2 released:

As for RetroPie, should the existing 2/3 version be compatible? I hope so!

The 4.7.1 image is not compatible, but a weekly snapshot image should work.

The 07-11 images works fine. I had some sound issues, but nothing unsolvable.
Is there any place to follow the development here?
To see what's new in new images and even more important when new images are going to be released?
Didn't found that in the forum or elsewhere at the page.

Btw.: awesome work, guys! Totally love my portable CPC

mitu

@x_speed said in Pi Zero 2 released:

Is there any place to follow the development here?

Development happens on the public Github repository - https://github.com/RetroPie/RetroPie-Setup.

To see what's new in new images and even more important when new images are going to be released?

When a new image is released, it's usually posted on the RetroPie site. As for when, there isn't a strict schedule or a roadmap for it.