Advice on neogeo games in Arcade folder

mitu

@riverstorm lr-fbalpha should pick up the neogeo.zip file from the BIOS folder, only fbalpha (non-lr emulator) needs it in the same folder as the ROMs. In fact this is my current setup - I have neogeo.zip in the BIOS folder only and lr-fbalpha is the default emulator for the arcade folder.
Are you sure it's not some other configuration that gets in the way ?

dankcushions

re: neogeo.zip and arcade folder

what's the use case of wanting to play some neogeo games via mame2003, and some via fbalpha, though? fbalpha is the better neogeo emulator.

Riverstorm

@mitu said in Advice on neogeo games in Arcade folder:

Are you sure it's not some other configuration that gets in the way ?

Thanks Mitu, sorry I wasn't clear on my setup. I mainly use lr-mame2003 (275 games roughly) so that's my default for Arcade. Second is AdvMAME for vector games and lastly is lr-fbalpha.

Some of my lr-mame2003 games are NeoGeo so it conflicts with the lr-fbalpha BIOS due to different files (same filenames but different versions).

If I add the lr-mame2003 neogeo.zip to the Arcade folder then lr-mame2003 games work. If I add the lr-fbalpha neogeo.zip to the folder then lr-fbalpha games work.

Whatever is in the Arcade folder directly is preferred.

Locating the neogeo.zip in the BIOS folder and removing it from the Arcade folder allows lr-fbalpha to work but then lr-mame2003 doesn't work.

Basically it looks like you can't run Neogeo games in two emulators in the Arcade folder. You're forced to use lr-fbalpha. Not a big deal but more of preference. I was wondering if anyone had addressed it or if it's the same still.

I don't have a problem converting NeoGeo games over to lr-fbalpha if that's what it takes. I think NeoGeo does sacrifice some emulation accuracy for speed which isn't a big deal and it definitely is clone and bootleg heavy. Does lr-fbalpha cover 100% of the NeoGeo library?

Riverstorm

@dankcushions said in Advice on neogeo games in Arcade folder:

what's the use case of wanting to play some neogeo games via mame2003, and some via fbalpha, though? fbalpha is the better neogeo emulator.

Nothing in stone and I didn't want to create 0.2.97.42 set to pull a handful of ROMs out. :) It seems like an easy tweak to allow it but I will convert it over.

@dankcushions I have lr-mame2003 as my default for Arcade and my keys setup the way I like but I was looking to swap a few keys in lr-fbalpha. Is it possible to do it at the system level? It's working fine at the ROM level but I was hoping not to be so granular and tweaking every game when using Arcade.

markwkidd

You can add your mame2003 BIOS files directly to the game romset zip to create a "Full Non-Merged" romset. In fact this is what the most current "MAME 2003 Reference Set" does -- in the past, the MAME 2003 Reference Set used "Non-Merged ROMs" which still had the BIOS separate.

Riverstorm

@markwkidd said in Advice on neogeo games in Arcade folder:

In fact this is what the most current "MAME 2003 Reference Set" does

Thanks Mark that's a great idea! It would allow the option of mixing NeoGeo roms from different emulators if a person chooses or has a need. There's a definite performance improvement to some games. Double Dragon is great example that visibly just runs smoother in FBA by just watching the intro you can see it. If you take the exact same ROM set it works fine in lr-mame2003 but it stutters and runs slower. Same ROM tweaked code.

Would there happen to be a DAT file for the "MAME 2003 Reference Set"?

Also I noticed on the FBA docs page. "Both the FB Alpha v0.2.97.42 DAT File: FB Alpha v0.2.97.42 (Arcade Only)" and "FB Alpha v0.2.97.42 DAT File: FB Alpha v0.2.97.42 (NeoGeo Only)" dat show "FB Alpha - Arcade Games" when loaded into ClrMamePro. It looks to be the DAT's where copied from "upstream" as the FBA source page has the same errors in their DAT's. I think just the header tags need tweaked to reflect the proper set type.

markwkidd

This is the DAT to use: https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-libretro/raw/master/metadata/MAME 0.78 XML.dat

You can find instructions for how to set ClrMamePro to rebuild "Full Non-Merged" romsets here, under "Crash Course in Arcade ROM terminology": https://retropie.org.uk/docs/Validating,-Rebuilding,-and-Filtering-ROM-Collections/

Riverstorm

@markwkidd said in Advice on neogeo games in Arcade folder:

You can find instructions for how to set ClrMamePro to rebuild "Full Non-Merged" romsets here, under "Crash Course in Arcade ROM terminology": https://retropie.org.uk/docs/Validating,-Rebuilding,-and-Filtering-ROM-Collections/

Thanks for all the information and links. I'm pretty comfortable with ClrMamePro after 100's of runs. I can almost do it with my eyes closed...almost. ;) I just never thought of merging the BIOS into the ROM in this scenario until you mentioned it which really is a brilliant idea that allows for some nice flexibility.

Riverstorm

@caver01 since you do a lot of advanced configuring or anyone that could verify if it can be done or if it's a limitation of using the Arcade folder.

I have lr-mame2003 as my default using the Arcade folder. My keys are setup the way I like but I was looking to swap a few keys in lr-fbalpha. Is it possible to do it at the system level? It's working fine to change keys at the ROM level but I was hoping not to be so granular and tweaking every game when using the Arcade folder.

Basically the keys are setup for lr-mame2003 and AdvMAME but I prefer lr-fbalpha to be slightly different. I tried altering fba/retroarch.cfg but that doesn't work so I am doing it at the ROM level which works fine but it requires a config file per game.

caver01

@riverstorm Nope. As far as I know you are basically stuck with a global default setup in configs/all, then a system config in configs/arcade (which is the problem--it applies to every libretro emulator used), and then you are down to per-ROM configs. No way to sort it out by emulator while still using ROMs combined in the Arcade roms folder.

Riverstorm

@caver01 said in Advice on neogeo games in Arcade folder:

Nope. As far as I know you are basically stuck with a global default setup in configs/all

Ah ok, thanks, maybe down the road. I mainly use lr-mame2003 but as I move more over to lr-fbalpha it would be nice to have a system config vs. one for each game. Or if you mainly use lr-fbalpha there's a many only supported in lr-mame2000. It would be nice to not be forced to comprise a global config for all MAME emulators.

dankcushions

if you created your arcade/retroarch.cfg with lr-fbalpha in mind,
with mame(2003) you could then override that with an 'ALL' input config set via the mame menu (TAB/R2).

i'd like to change mame2003 so that its default inputs for CPS2, neogeo, etc, are in line with lr-fbalpha which make a little more sense, but it's one of those things that is tough to justify changing at this stage, now that so many have config'd their systems around the current defaults.

dankcushions

@dankcushions said in Advice on neogeo games in Arcade folder:

if you created your arcade/retroarch.cfg with lr-fbalpha in mind,
with mame(2003) you could then override that with an 'ALL' input config set via the mame menu (TAB/R2).

or... even better, just use a core override. for example - in fbalpha, set the controls via the RGUI to the way you want, and then save it via quick menu as a 'core override'. that will mean that fbalpha will load that override no matter what folder you launch from, and mame2003 could have its own, independent core override (or having nothing and fall back to the /arcade/retroarch.cfg settings)

Riverstorm

@dankcushions said in Advice on neogeo games in Arcade folder:

i'd like to change mame2003 so that its default inputs for CPS2, neogeo, etc, are in line with lr-fbalpha which make a little more sense

Thanks Dank, after testing out the Arcade 'folder' I really like the consolidation of all the MAME emulators under one "emulator". I think your ideas will be worth reworking my inputs. They are not nearly as complex as many. I would also need to redo some game configurations. I have a working image that I can play on while I slowly rework everything.

I did a ROM compare between lr-fbalpha (complete set) and the 300 or so ROMs I am using in lr-mame2003. Around 200 of those games are supported in lr-fbalpha. I think I will stick with lr-mame2003 for the smaller games and cut-over the problem games like Double Dragon, D&D games, etc. that are a bit choppy.

I am ok with changes that make more sense in the long run. We do it at work all the time, painful as it is. Computers. Hopefully someone will carry it on (this project) long after us baby boomers and gen-xers are gone. Hopefully the millennials and beyond can see the beauty in 8-bit retro-gaming and keep it alive. :)

Riverstorm

@caver01 Off topic but not worth a new thread. I've been testing the thermal paste vs tape we talked about a while ago on a Zero. They both seem to do well. I don't think paste is a clear knock out but maybe a preference and definitely an alternative if you don't have one or the other handy.

It's fairly rock solid when cool but when heated up it's a bit slippery but seems to sit fine. It's easy to break the cohesion if bumped when cool too which would be a CPU killer or a degradation in cooling but doesn't seem to effect the Pi to much when heated back up.

It can be a bit messy and a bit of trial and error getting the correct amount but it does work well. The tape I have been using is easy to pull off in a single piece. I've had some heatsinks where it is gooey and messy to remove though. Inside a larger unit I would do paste but if it's a small case that's portable being shoved in a bag, pocket, etc. I would probably use tape.

If I get some time I will sit down do more exact temp difference.

I was a bit disappointed in the Flirc 2 case for cooling. Aesthetically it's my preference but I just ordered a BIQU from what I read it cools better due to 3 points of contact on chips with a solid aluminum column vs. the Flirc which covers only the main chip and it's a hollow column not to mention the rubber top covers the hollow column which I would say holds in more heat.

That nice looking Wicked Aluminum case I hear cools incredibly well with it's chip contacts and paste. It's solid aluminum and screws together tightly so no slippage but when the BIQU is similar and about 6 times cheaper I'll give it a shot even if a few degrees warmer. Basically I am hoping to get rid of the fan and go all passive cooling overclocked. Ok longer than I thought but not surprising.

caver01

@riverstorm Interesting about the heat sink. My early advocacy against tape was that it is possible to have a bad product. I know there are good thermal tapes out there and likely kits that use good stuff, but I have also seen crap, so I recommend the thermal compound.

My sink never moved, but it was susceptible to sliding when bumped. After a year or so, the compound firmed up. I have also had good luck using it again inside a NESPi case with a 5 volt fan running off 3.3v (poor man's quiet mode). Shame to hear about the FLIRC.

Riverstorm

@caver01 said in Advice on neogeo games in Arcade folder:

Shame to hear about the FLIRC.

Poor man's quiet mode that's good. Yeah that's the other thing. The original tape that comes with the Flirc is thick. It's cut smaller by quite a bit from fully fitting the main SoC, not sure why. So I tried cutting a proper size piece from stock I had but it's to thin to fill the gap between column and chip. I read Artic (not Artic Silver) makes a thermal tape of different thicknesses.

The BIQU's columns are thinner than the chip (save some aluminum) from the pics but it's solid. Also you can't use the mounting holes on the back of the case as even low profile pan head screws short out on the bottom. They cut one big hole to cover all ports instead of individual.

The Flirc has nice attention to detail cutting around each port. The two tone case and rubber top are nice looking and feel but not geared as well toward cooling. Plastic bottom with holes.

The Wicked Aluminum did all things right the first time but at a ridiculous cost as the new B+ with an IHS (looks like it only covers the top of the SoC instead of enclosing it from the pics) almost makes it void now as I am sure it will not fit that case. The Flirc might be ok as the gap is fairly large and paste isn't even an option with the Flirc so the IHS might narrow it enough.

I suppose it's no different than "investing" to trick out a car or rims, hunting, fishing, RVing, oversized TVs, stereo equipment, whatever the hobby may be.

I read it's beneficial to take the time to sand the contact points to remove the paint on the BIQU for bonus cooling points. Keeping it level is key like lapping a CPU. I should have it this weekend to mess around with. Well I ordered it Amazon Prime anyway as we keep a subscription but Prime hardly means anything anymore. It seems very select on what arrives in two days.

Yes I've seen thermal compound "crust" when properly applied (thin enough) and screwed down after enough time but usually a few years. I think AS recommends around 100 cycles of heating and cooling to cure and maximize cooling.

It does look like it would work but without it being clamped down in some fashion it seems like it would loosen up between cycles or seasons. I know here we have extreme dry in the winter to extreme humidity in the summer and that makes a big difference. The freezing temps in the winter cause "frost heaving" pushing up solid concrete, footings and building foundations can be moved unless you keep them below the frost line but most contractors in this type of climate know better. Probably not quite the same thing but doors are more snug in the summer when full of moisture and loose in the winter when dry, windows, furniture, etc. That humidity can expand or lack of can crack and dry things out pretty badly.

The viscosity of compound changes when it's hot too making it more suspectable to moving. I did tin the SoC and just put a dab in the center. which misses the extreme corners if you look at the spread pattern. I remember going through that stage of applying and reapplying paste to a CPU to find the maximum cooling for your PC. You can get them (the corners) if you don't mind some excess squeezing out the sides but some of the metal based ones are electrically conductive and would require cleanup due to shorting. With some of the dual core CPUs Artic Silver recommends a thin line down the center but there's not enough room on the Pi. I dislike it when it squeezes out the sides and stains the motherboard CPU socket around the chip.

A good "clamp" might gain you a few degrees. Either way I agree I think paste or a good quality tape are going to keep the cooling well within spec.

caver01

@riverstorm said in Advice on neogeo games in Arcade folder:

Prime hardly means anything anymore. It seems very select on what arrives in two days.

Be sure to open a "chat" session when prime stuff is late. It only takes a couple minutes to file your complaint and they always offer five bucks in credit, or a Prime extension which is probably worth more.

Riverstorm

@caver01 said in Advice on neogeo games in Arcade folder:

Be sure to open a "chat" session when prime stuff is late. It only takes a couple minutes to file your complaint and they always offer five bucks in credit, or a Prime extension which is probably worth more.

Thanks for the tip I will definitely do that next time!

Riverstorm

Is the processing order from low to high as follows. Do the "direct" inputs from mame TAB input fit in here or are they processed outside the hierarchy?

Global Retroarch
System Retroarch
Core (Override)
ROM configuration

Just to follow up on the BIQU case (it arrvied on Saturday Caver ;). It does cool much better than the Flirc 2.

The columns are much slimmer than I thought from looking at pics. They also have "dimples" in the contact surface. Not sure what the reasoning is even though it's a molded case. Two dimples in the main SoC column and one in the ethernet(?) chip. The underside memory(?) chip had no dimples but the surface was convex and required sanding it down.

The contact surface on the columns sanded easy revealing the metal. The underside chip took a bit more work as it was convex and also tight to work inside the lip of the case. The top columns are open and easy to work with. I used a fairly high grit sand paper as my brother does auto body but 300 grit or so from the hardware store works. I used a small block to keep the sanding level.

I did a "cold press" with thermal paste and the columns hit near dead center. I used Shin-EtsuMicroSi vs AS5 as the viscosity is almost clay like-ish and it worked nicely to fill the dimples and set.

I was testing in an ambient of around 75F/24C. With the BIQU I leveled off around 56-57C. The Flirc 2 was around 74-75C. That's with all settings overclocked and a voltage bump.

Another noticeable drawback of the BIQU case is no visible lights as they are completely enclosed inside the case.

I like the BIQU as it cools easily in the 50s with no fans or extras. It's quiet and it's a decent case with a decent finish for around $12 US which is a good bit cheaper then the Flirc 2 even though I like the Flirc 2 look better.

Something I found interesting or I didn't think about really. Is the when I removed the Pi from the Flirc it was "stuck" it took about 10 minutes of gentle prying around the edges of the board to get the tape to break loose. There's no easy way to pull them apart as the Pi is slightly coutersunk into the top.

The other thing I noticed the tape was roughed up around the edges but smooth and flat in the center, basically untouched. I came to the conclusion that not all the SoC's are completely level so that chalks one up to paste being a better option in some scenarios. Plus with paste it comes apart much easier.