v4.4 RPi 3B+ N64 experiences
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Hey everyone, just wanted to open this up to see if anyone noticed any improvements in playing N64 games with the new version release. Please comment below with your experiences. Currently I'm in the process of updating my RPi Zero and the 3 B+ will follow.
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I am interested here too. Especially in comparison to
RetroPie 4.3 with Raspberry Pi 3B
VS
RetroPie 4.4 with Raspberry Pi 3B+
To be honest, I don't expect much here. Its the same gpu implementation and N64 is very gpu dependent. Also the changed on RP4.4 don't have any big changes, which should affect this. And overclocked 3B comes near to 3B+. The question is, if 3B+ can be overclocked further or is it like overclocked and tested by the company already, hitting the max? So, if someone can say more about this, let me know. I may buy the new PLUS and start all over again. -
The problem with Nintendo 64 emulation is not the CPU clock of the Pi but the emulators themselves. The system has always been emulated with several HLE plugins in mind instead of a unified approach, due to the complicated nature of its hardware architecture and benefits by the flexibility of each plugin serving particular needs.
Mupen64Plus (especially the libretro core version) has been recently unifying things. I can't see an option for a graphics plugin while several problem titles are now playing much better. However, emulation is far, far from accurate and nowhere near as good as PS1.
In conclusion, don't expect much improvement with a higher clock speed. It's all about the emulator becoming more accurate yet efficient enough. Lets not forget that the upcoming Nintendo 64 mini will be most likely based upon NES classic mini hardware which is inferior to the Pi 3, but since Nintendo has complete documentation for their hardware (instead of guesswork/reverse engineering), emulation will be efficient and practically perfect.
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@matchaman while mupen64plus-gliden64 emulation isn't perfect it actually is very very good. The problem is we RPI users don't have access to the "full" version of the emulator. The GPU on the pi doesn't support gles3 and it is also very slow by now days standards. So while the emulator can and will improve it's really the RPI hardware and GPU drivers that are by far the biggest limitation at the moment.
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I am wondering the same because the 3B+ runs natively at 1400Mhz
And over clocking increases instability...
So my guessing is it will run smoother at the very least
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@drakaen391 said in v4.4 RPi 3B+ N64 experiences:
And over clocking increases instability...
Not necessary. It CAN increase instability; the trick is to find out how far one can go with a part of hardware, as not all chips are exactly the same and will clock differently. The manufacturers default clock is just the guaranteed bare minimum clock speed, even if a single unit can clock higher. Sorry, I was feeling to type this. :D
Btw I am running the 3B at 1400Mhz too, plus other parts overclocked too.
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My observations? The games i use run better with the pi3b+ than they did on the pi3. Most noticeably improved is KI Gold, but I notice slight speedups on conkers bad fur day as well. Haven't tested much else as of yet, but i was pleasantly surprised to see less slowdown.
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@gomisensei On RetroPie 4.3 or 4.4?
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@matchaman said in v4.4 RPi 3B+ N64 experiences:
The problem with Nintendo 64 emulation is not the CPU clock of the Pi but the emulators themselves. The system has always been emulated with several HLE plugins in mind instead of a unified approach, due to the complicated nature of its hardware architecture and benefits by the flexibility of each plugin serving particular needs.
ok, so how is that a 'problem'? the pi does not have the CPU power to emulate n64 at a low level ("LLE"), so it is stuck with high level emulation ("HLE"), of which the gliden64 plugin is very sophisticated and accurate, but the pi simply doesn't have a GPU capable of running it properly. you have a powerful PC and you can run n64 LLE (angrylion) and it will be pixel perfect, and a moderate PC can run n64 HLE (gliden64) and it will be much better than the pi!
Mupen64Plus (especially the libretro core version) has been recently unifying things. I can't see an option for a graphics plugin while several problem titles are now playing much better. However, emulation is far, far from accurate and nowhere near as good as PS1.
mupen64plus doesn't unify anything - it's still plugins (which is good, IMO - you need options because not all hardware should/could run the same emulator software). it's also pretty much as accurate as PS1, with the right hardware.
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@dankcushions it's not a problem by any means but N64 emulation feels like developers are still lacking information about the system. Nintendo managed to emulate the N64 virtually flawlessly on the GameCube (Zelda re-releases) and the Wii (virtual console). I'm pretty sure it's been HLE but done really, really well.
As for angrylion, my Ryzen 5 still has hiccups with some titles. "Pixel accurate" emulation requires incredible computing power for a system like the N64 so it's out of question for low-powered devices for many years to come in my opinion.
mupen64plus doesn't unify anything - it's still plugins (which is good, IMO - you need options because not all hardware should/could run the same emulator software). it's also pretty much as accurate as PS1, with the right hardware.
My bad, I thought that Mupen64plus was getting close to having only one graphics plugin, at least for low-powered devices. I understand the practicality of plugins but I would rather see something universally optimized for the end result (with a sacrifice to accuracy).
My whole point is that a couple more hundred MHz will not really change the situation with N64 emulation. It's either a really strong desktop PC or further HLE development which I would love to see in the future.
Another example of HLE done right was zsnes. It runs on a toaster (as long as it's x86) but the vast majority of games is playable and fairly accurate to the end-user, although the code is purely based on "hacks".
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@gomisensei Did you overclock?
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@thelostsoul said in v4.4 RPi 3B+ N64 experiences:
@gomisensei Did you overclock?
No, not yet, though not sure if the old pi3 was overclocked...
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@gomisensei I ask this, because I assume you tested at stock speeds. I run my RP3B overclocked at 1400Mhz like the Plus and other parts are overclocked too (stable). So the benefit of Plus would be very little, if the Pi 3B+ can't be overclocked much.
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I'm agree it's an emulator problem :(
The PI3 is enough powerful to play N64.On the first old black xBox, we emulate N64 really better than on PI3 !
And it's an old single core, 700 Mhz proc with only 64 ridiculous Mo of RAM !But on xBox we have Surreal64 that is a menu that can launch all the N64 emulators ported to xBox : 1941, Projetc64 and Ultra HLE !
All of them optimized, and with all the plugins optimized to for xBox!
And for each games we choose and configure the best emulator+plugin possible, for video and sound.The source code are all free ... maybe the best way where to take them and try to port them to PI (ARM) ...
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@darknior said in v4.4 RPi 3B+ N64 experiences:
The PI3 is enough powerful to play N64.
No it's not. Your theoretical assumptions are not backed up by reality.
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@matchaman said in v4.4 RPi 3B+ N64 experiences:
@dankcushions it's not a problem by any means but N64 emulation feels like developers are still lacking information about the system. Nintendo managed to emulate the N64 virtually flawlessly on the GameCube (Zelda re-releases) and the Wii (virtual console). I'm pretty sure it's been HLE but done really, really well.
it's not even HLE - basically they create a 'zelda emulator', then a 'mario 64 emulator', etc. if you hack your wii, you can 'inject' other games into these emulators and they won't work well, or at all, because the emulators aren't emulating the nintendo 64, but emulating that specific game. this is kinda how previous n64 emulators worked, with game-specific 'hacks' to get a subset of titles working, but at low accuracy and so on.
we even have such plugins on the pi - if all you want to do is play mario 64, and mario kart 64, fire up gles2n64 (which i think is a derivative of the ancient glide64 plugin), and it will run both of those games at 1080p more or less perfectly, but anything else... not so much.
i am curious how the glide64 plugin would work on the pi, if it compiles/runs: https://github.com/mupen64plus/mupen64plus-video-glide64
As for angrylion, my Ryzen 5 still has hiccups with some titles. "Pixel accurate" emulation requires incredible computing power for a system like the N64 so it's out of question for low-powered devices for many years to come in my opinion.
yes exactly - the rpi is a low powered device. although your ryzen 5 should do ok with the multithreaded versions of angrylion that are out now. i think retroarch has one.
mupen64plus doesn't unify anything - it's still plugins (which is good, IMO - you need options because not all hardware should/could run the same emulator software). it's also pretty much as accurate as PS1, with the right hardware.
My bad, I thought that Mupen64plus was getting close to having only one graphics plugin, at least for low-powered devices. I understand the practicality of plugins but I would rather see something universally optimized for the end result (with a sacrifice to accuracy).
i think ultimately we have that - mupen64plus's CPU dynarec(s) are pretty high accuracy and run great on more or less anything at full performance (even the rpi), and gliden64 is the best HLE video plugin and works great on more-or-less anything. both of these are in active development.
My whole point is that a couple more hundred MHz will not really change the situation with N64 emulation. It's either a really strong desktop PC or further HLE development which I would love to see in the future.
the rpi has weak gpu with GLES2; weaker than any phone of the last 5 or so years, so it comes to a point where it simply isn't possible to emulate many graphical effects and concepts that are needed in an n64 emulator - this is the common story i hear, watching the gliden64 github. if it was just GLES3 or beyond the story would be so different.
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@dankcushions said in v4.4 RPi 3B+ N64 experiences:
i am curious how the glide64 plugin would work on the pi, if it compiles/runs: https://github.com/mupen64plus/mupen64plus-video-glide64
Has this ever been done before? I am curious myself.
the rpi has weak gpu with GLES2; weaker than any phone of the last 5 or so years, so it comes to a point where it simply isn't possible to emulate many graphical effects and concepts that are needed in an n64 emulator - this is the common story i hear, watching the gliden64 github. if it was just GLES3 or beyond the story would be so different.
I wonder what a (potential) Pi4 with GLES3 would bring to the table. Not just for N64 emulation but wouldnt it allow other emulators to work better as well?
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We can build mupen64plus/ Glide64mk2 but it runs really bad. I don‘t know why but it is the slowest graphics plugin available.
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