Anyone getting the Sinden light gun?
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My two non-recoil Sindens arrived two days ago. 🤣 But their installation and testing will have to wait until the coming weekend. 😭
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So … here are some first results.
Positive:
- The guns are really nice and well-built. Their size and weight is perfect for a tall, middle-aged, fairly sporty man like me. 😉
- The hardware seems to work perfectly according to my tests so far.
- Installation on the approx. 17 months old stock RetroPie of my Pi 4 worked as described in @Chupachups' post above. 👍
- When the gun was first sent back to Britain because the German delivery service didn't notice me of its failed delivery attempt in my absence, the very friendly Sinden support sent it again to me without any extra charges. (They failed to give me a tracking link the first time, so they weren't completely innocent of the failed attempt. They gave me the link the second time.)
Negative:
- The "Linux drivers" are actually Windows NET applications run by Mono on Linux. I would prefer real native Linux drivers, as now I suspect any problems to come (partially) from this additional software layer.
- On Linux, there is no system-wide border that you can enable as on Windows. Because of that, you'll have to use Sinden's border overlays in RetroArch. That means that you'll have to use similar means for other emulators or native games on Linux, and as far as I understand RetroArch's overlay system, you can't use your own overlays and the Sinden border overlay at the same time. (?) It would be nice if Sinden provided a system-wide border like they do on Windows.
- The test program for the Pi froze at first in several attemps so hard that even "sudo kill -9" couldn't end it. I had to restart the Pi to get rid of it. Strangely, this was "fixed" by not starting the Pi drivers before running the test, and it didn't freeze again since then regardless of the drivers are running or not. (?)
- That said, the test program still exits with this error every time when I quit it by moving the pointer to the bottom right of the screen:
1399 Segmentation fault sudo mono LightgunMono.exe sdl 30(An "exe" isn't something you like to see on your Linux machines. 😡 )
- The Windows application also crashed on multiple occations on my Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit, notably in the middle updating the firmware. 😮 I feared that I may have bricked the gun, but it still worked. Strangely again, later firmware updates went through perfectly (yeah, I had to try it again … danger seeker 😎 ).
So, the software on neither Linux nor Windows seems to be matured. My Windows 10 is very much the stock installation, since I only use it for some games and Windows-only applications. My main system is Linux.
Problems at hand:
- Although the guns are now recognised on my Pi, neither
lr-fceummnorlr-nestopiaseem to recognise them – or their mouse part at least. The crosshair won't move, and the mouse buttons (trigger and foremost two left buttons on the gun) can't be bound in the RetroArch GUI. In contrast, the d-pad and the two keyboard buttons on the right side of the guns are recognized.
The guns show up in
/proc/bus/input/devices:I: Bus=0003 Vendor=16c0 Product=0f38 Version=0101 N: Name="Unknown SindenLightgun Keyboard" P: Phys=usb-0000:01:00.0-1.4.2.2/input2 S: Sysfs=/devices/platform/scb/fd500000.pcie/pci0000:00/0000:00:00.0/0000:01:00.0/usb1/1-1/1-1.4/1-1.4.2/1-1.4.2.2/1-1.4.2.2:1.2/0003:16C0:0F38.0003/input/input1 U: Uniq=HIDLG H: Handlers=sysrq kbd event1 B: PROP=0 B: EV=100013 B: KEY=e080ffdf 1cfffff ffffffff fffffffe B: MSC=10 I: Bus=0003 Vendor=16c0 Product=0f38 Version=0101 N: Name="Unknown SindenLightgun Mouse" P: Phys=usb-0000:01:00.0-1.4.2.2/input2 S: Sysfs=/devices/platform/scb/fd500000.pcie/pci0000:00/0000:00:00.0/0000:01:00.0/usb1/1-1/1-1.4/1-1.4.2/1-1.4.2.2/1-1.4.2.2:1.2/0003:16C0:0F38.0003/input/input2 U: Uniq=HIDLG H: Handlers=mouse0 event2 B: PROP=0 B: EV=1b B: KEY=70000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 B: ABS=3 B: MSC=10 I: Bus=0003 Vendor=32e4 Product=9210 Version=0100 N: Name="SindenCameraJ" P: Phys=usb-0000:01:00.0-1.4.2.1/button S: Sysfs=/devices/platform/scb/fd500000.pcie/pci0000:00/0000:00:00.0/0000:01:00.0/usb1/1-1/1-1.4/1-1.4.2/1-1.4.2.1/1-1.4.2.1:1.0/input/input9 U: Uniq= H: Handlers=kbd event9 B: PROP=0 B: EV=3 B: KEY=100000 0 0 0 0 0 0And their buttons work in
evtest:$ evtest /dev/input/event2 Event: time 1625987786.208948, -------------- SYN_REPORT ------------ Event: time 1625987786.647019, type 4 (EV_MSC), code 4 (MSC_SCAN), value 90001 Event: time 1625987786.647019, type 1 (EV_KEY), code 272 (BTN_LEFT), value 1 Event: time 1625987786.647019, -------------- SYN_REPORT ------------ Event: time 1625987786.846078, type 4 (EV_MSC), code 4 (MSC_SCAN), value 90001 Event: time 1625987786.846078, type 1 (EV_KEY), code 272 (BTN_LEFT), value 0 Event: time 1625987786.846078, -------------- SYN_REPORT ------------ Event: time 1625987787.510191, type 4 (EV_MSC), code 4 (MSC_SCAN), value 90002 Event: time 1625987787.510191, type 1 (EV_KEY), code 273 (BTN_RIGHT), value 1 Event: time 1625987787.510191, -------------- SYN_REPORT ------------ Event: time 1625987787.671197, type 4 (EV_MSC), code 4 (MSC_SCAN), value 90002 Event: time 1625987787.671197, type 1 (EV_KEY), code 273 (BTN_RIGHT), value 0 Event: time 1625987787.671197, -------------- SYN_REPORT ------------ Event: time 1625987788.256340, type 4 (EV_MSC), code 4 (MSC_SCAN), value 90003 Event: time 1625987788.256340, type 1 (EV_KEY), code 274 (BTN_MIDDLE), value 1 Event: time 1625987788.256340, -------------- SYN_REPORT ------------ Event: time 1625987788.414346, type 4 (EV_MSC), code 4 (MSC_SCAN), value 90003 Event: time 1625987788.414346, type 1 (EV_KEY), code 274 (BTN_MIDDLE), value 0So, my Sinden experience is kinda mixed at the moment. I'll try other systems like Playstation and Mega Drive, other diagnostic measures like disconnecting all unneeded USB devices (like my two SpinTrak spinners that also show up as mice in the system), and maybe try the custom RetroPie "Bare Bones" image from the Sinden wiki.
Any suggestions are welcome.
Cheers
Clyde -
Update: I tested the gun on my Desktop x86 PC running Kubuntu Linux 18.04 LTS.
- The test program opened a non-fullscreen window that was positioned too low to show the whole border, and couldn't be made fullscreen by normal means. Thus, the gun didn't recognise the partly-shown border. Only after I forced the window to be fullscreen, it worked as expected. All hail the window rules of KDE Plasma's window manager Kwin. 🍻
- Alas, the gun doesn't work either with this machine's RetroPie installation. Though in contrast to my Pi, the trigger and side buttons of the gun can be bound as mouse buttons in RetroArch, there's still no moving crosshair in
lr-fcecummrunning Duck Hunt. My normal PC mouse, however, does work out of the box with the game.
I'm going to bed now. Stay tuned for further updates.
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I'm not exactly sold on this, I wish they make this more open so it would work on my Raspberry Pi unit running Lakka OS.
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@emulatre71 Yes, I also wish they would make their drivers and tools open source and release them on an public online repository like Github. Ideally, they'd go the extra mile and get the driver integrated in the Linux kernel. Then the guns should run on most Linux devices out of the box like so many other devices do. But I doubt this will happen in the forseeable future.
As for Lakka, according to this thread on the LibRetro forums, there are severe incompatibilities in software (Lakka doesn't have Mono) and licensing (Sinden's software is closed source and reserves all rights to themselves).
I don't understand how today a project that is targeted primarily at the retrogaming and emulation community can be so closed-minded (and -sourced) that they don't see the benefits of opening their code for improvement by that same community, when most emulators, frontends, and tools already took that route.
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@clyde said in Anyone getting the Sinden light gun?:
@emulatre71 Yes, I also wish they would make their drivers and tools open source and release them on an public online repository like Github. Ideally, they'd go the extra mile and get the driver integrated in the Linux kernel.
I don't think they have any kernel driver included, isn't the device emulating a keyboard + mouse input, which should work OOB on both Windows and Linux ?
As for Lakka, according to this thread on the LibRetro forums, there are severe incompatibilities in software (Lakka doesn't have Mono) and licensing (Sinden's software is closed source and reserves all rights to themselves).
'severe incompatibility' is a bit far fetched. It's the calibration/configuration utility that is not supported and Lakka is a 'sealed' system (i.e. you can't install anything on it).
I don't understand how today a project that is targeted primarily at the retrogaming and emulation community can be so closed-minded (and -sourced) ...
Did 8bitDo / Microsoft open source their hardware or utilities ? The fact that it works - also - with open source emulators/software doesn't require open sourcing the hardware or the configuration utility. I don't see an issue with the creator retaining the rights on their creations and - at least in the first phase - trying to make a profit off of it. See for instance RetroTink Ultimate, which open sourced the design of their RGB hat after the author decided it wouldn't produce it anymore.
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[deleted because sent accidentally before finishing]
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@mitu said in Anyone getting the Sinden light gun?:
I don't think they have any kernel driver included, isn't the device emulating a keyboard + mouse input, which should work OOB on both Windows and Linux ?
I don't think so either, I just wish they would.
Without the mono driver, the gun is registered as three USB devices: a camera, a keyboard, and a mouse. But it needs the driver to recognise the white or coloured border around the screen to pinpoint its position and bearing. Without it, the "mouse" either doesn't give any movement output or just gibberish.
'severe incompatibility' is a bit far fetched. It's the calibration/configuration utility that is not supported and Lakka is a 'sealed' system (i.e. you can't install anything on it).
It's mostly semantics, but I would call a sealed system without a necessary component (mono) and a license that prohibits any distribution of the driver and tools except by the hardware's vendor quite severe obstacles.
Did 8bitDo / Microsoft open source their hardware or utilities ?
I don't know about 8bitDo, but Power Shell and NET were open sourced years ago. Microsoft is far from a role model for openness, but even they invest heavily in open source since their currenct CEO changed the company's course in the 2010s. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_and_open_source for details.
Better examples would be Intel who have a long history of open source drivers, and AMD who still have an closed source driver but work together with the community on an open source driver that is way better than the NVidia counterpart that is ignored or even hindered by Nvidia.
The fact that it works - also - with open source emulators/software doesn't require open sourcing the hardware or the configuration utility. I don't see an issue with the creator retaining the rights on their creations and - at least in the first phase - trying to make a profit off of it.
It doesn't require it, but it could take some load off the developers of this small company, by letting the community participating in the process. In which way would the creator lose any rights? Open sourcing doesn't take any from them that I can think of.
That said, Sinden doesn't make profit from its software that is freely available from their website. Its the hardware – or the combination of both – that people have already paid millions for. I don't see how that's going to change by opening the software to scrutiny and collaboration. They could even retain some binary microcode inside for critical parts like the border detection.
See for instance RetroTink Ultimate, which open sourced the design of their RGB hat after the author decided it wouldn't produce it anymore.
It's nice if creators do that (id software is another prominent example), but that doesn't say anything about closed source being necessary for profit. In fact, the countless profitable open source based projects and companys contrict that thesis, as does the heavy investment of global corporations in this sector.
I don't want to hijack this thread. Please feel free to detach our discussion to a new one at your discretion. 😇
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There are many of use who are sick and tired of the bs associated with proprietary software. I would love to see more trends towards Open Source.
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If it was open source I could easily find the solution to the problems here. Instead I bought the article and as soon as I connected, following the instructions, it didn't work.
It is true that I have been busy with something else so far and have not run any further tests. I reinstalled Retropie and followed the instructions. Now I also have to reconfigure everything on that raspberry.
But I don't know English well, neither linux, nor Discord. So I can't even quite understand what to try to solve.
It could be the reason why many users resold the gun on ebay a few days after receiving it.
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@chupachups Well, FOSS (free and open source software) isn't some kind of magic that fixes everything – you still need people who have the skills and motivation for it. But at least FOSS makes it a possibility, whereas CSS hinders any collaboration of the community. And I think that especially small businesses with a niche consumer base can profit from such collaboration.
It could be the reason why many users resold the gun on ebay a few days after receiving it.
That, or they want to exploit the current scarcity of the guns to get more than they themselves paid for them.
I don't have time to tinker with mine before the weekend. My next plans are to try the „Bare Bones“ image and a vestal official RetroPie image. If one of those does work, I'll compare their config files to find any clues.
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Update: After some tedious testing with the Bare Bones image, I found out that the mouse index in RetroArch isn't the same as the system's. As said before, the Sinden gun appears as
/dev/input/mouse0and/dev/input/event2in the system. But in RetroArch, I have to set the mouse index to1!So far, so irritating. 🙄 Now I can move the cursor in both
lr-fceummandlr-pcsx-rearmed, not only in the Bare Bones image, but also in my own RetroPie system.
😀🍻😁BUT alas, solving one problem led to the next: The gun seems to assume a higher screen resolution than lr-fceumm and lr-pcsx-rearmed provide, i.e. the crosshair is way too fast and will already have reached the screen border when the gun's real aim just moved approx. a third of that distance. Calibrating the gun by holding
lefton its D-Pad for three seconds doesn't fix that, as it aligns the aim at one position, but from there the movement is still too fast.I couldn't find any reports about this phenomenon on the web. My monitor's native resolution is 1600x1200. Changing the aspect ratio in RetroArch doesn't fix the problem.
Any ideas? Otherwise, my next step will be to contact Sinden support and/or asking on https://www.reddit.com/r/SindenLightgun/. But not today, the lengthy troubleshooting was enough for one day. 😛
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I can't download the BAREBONES 7.1 image, from HarryDogs site (https://barebones.lightgun.dev/bb7x1.rar), it always stops
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@chupachups How do you try to download it?
If everything else fails, boot up your normal RetroPie and use wget. ;)
Download to the current directory:
wget https://barebones.lightgun.dev/bb7x1.rarDownload to the system's root directory that can be read in Windows:
sudo wget -P / https://barebones.lightgun.dev/bb7x1.rar -
Thanks for the hint. Today the download from firefox is ok.
EDIT: installed but.. don't work the player1test :( I will try another time tomorrow
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Noticed my production / order id was cleared at the factory sometime in the last weeks.
Did you guys get a tracking number pretty quickly, or did the gun just show up in the end? -
@dipkid Mine just showed up.
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@dipkid just showed up
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@chupachups said in Anyone getting the Sinden light gun?:
@dipkid just showed up
As did another Update:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-sinden-lightgun#/updates/all
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@clyde yeah, thats where i saw mine should be on the way. im a #7000 backer
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