Arcade Controller - Button/USB Question

[THRobinson]

I had another thread about build questions, more generic, but figured I'd start another thread for this one.

I debated making an arcade cabinet, bar top, briefcase idea was pretty good, but decided in the end to make a controller box to plug into the TV when I want to play it.

My nieces/nephews like the idea, but no one is a fan of sitting that close to on another on the sofa to play 2-player... we don't have a coffee table so, the box would be on your lap. So I thought, how about putting all the buttons and RaspPi into 1 box for 1 player. Build a 2nd box of just the joystick/buttons. If playing solo, just use the primary box, if someone else wants to play, grab a 6-10' USB cable and connect the 2nd box to the Primary.

So... question time....

1. If using non-LED buttons, does the 2nd box need power? or will the USB connection to the RaspPi be enough? Powered USB hub?
2. If some times I play solo, and sometimes I hook up the 2nd box... will RetroPie remember the button config for the 2nd box? or will I have to setup the buttons constantly? (ie. I play solo, shut down, plug in the 2nd box, startup, will the buttons work? or do I have to re-map them all again).
3. For an arcade... how do you guys shut down? Mausberry circuit? Map a button to some sorta shutdown?

Button plan, on the primary is a joystick, 6 buttons, 1 player, Start, and 4 extras along the side. Saw a video of someone who builds boxes for 2-player and had 4 setup for admin functions... seemed a good idea. 2nd box, a joystick, 6 buttons, and a 2 Player button only.

Something like this... I may go LED on the main one but if I can avoid needing power on the 2nd by using non-LED buttons, I will to make it easier.

I have a RaspPi3 now with a single PS3 controller, so, no idea how the system works with a controller that's sometimes plugged in, sometimes not.

Thanks

[caver01]

@THRobinson These are great design questions that strive to address real-world needs and configuration options.

First, if using Arcade controls like you are, smart to have the admin buttons. I have 4 and they are very handy. Also, consider the player start and the COIN buttons. Start and Coin double as Start and Select for console games, so a set for each player makes sense

It seems like the first control box which will house the Pi and Player 1 controls is a no-brainer no matter what your components are inside. The real questions are about the player 2 box. In order to address these, I would ask you: What are your buttons connected to? They have to be wired to something. Is it an IPAC? Is it direct to GPIO pins? What?

The answer to the above controller question will affect your design choices. For example, let's say you are planning to use an IPAC or something similar. It will connect to the Pi via USB and probably sit inside Box 1. Right? Now, player 2 buttons and joystick will need to be wired to the IPAC, not to USB, so a USB cable to connect the boxes is out of the question. You would need to have a wire with enough conductors to extend the wiring to each button. For a proper player 2 connected this way, you need to extend: Up, Down, Left, Right, SW1,SW2,SW3,SW4,SW5,SW6,Start,Coin, Ground. That's 13 conductors by my count. A 15-pin VGA cable would do it, for example.

On the other hand, if each player has their own controller, USB would work. Or, you could put the controller into Player 2 box (usb) and have Player1 wired directly to GPIO pins and run a python script to convert those inputs to keypresses (adafruit retrogame, or mholgatem's GPIOneer would work).

I will write more later, but this should get you thinking.

[THRobinson]

I think we're talking the same config... joystick, 6-button for game, 4-button for admin... then the 2 other buttons... I call them Start and Player-1... but I think same function as what you mentioned. Though I saw some buttons that look like the coin slots on old systems which is fun, then of course the buttons with a little person (or two) on them.

Connection wise, I was looking at these on eBay and found a site that has them. I emailed their tech support and got a response a few minutes ago saying no external power needed, works from USB power... I have the RaspPi3 and got the 5v 2.5A power supply vs the smaller 2A version so, assuming has enough to power that pcb board. Some of those are like $5 on eBay... though then stuck waiting 45 days for it to arrive from China, and a 50% chance it'll get lost on the way. Trying to avoid eBay China stuff these days... worth paying extra to actually get stuff within a few weeks.

I'm not sure if the above is an IPAC? or if they are problematic? But, seems to be a lot of them offered with the kits. Originally I was going to use a single board like I saw in a DIY video, which says IPAC... looked handy and I was gonna do everything in one box and lights etc... but split box makes more sense since 90% of the time it'll be solo-play and can keep it on your lap.

Next thing is, to spend hours on eBay and other sites, trying to find what I want since I'm kinda picky about colour and well, hardware to mount for external ports for USB. HDMI and power I guess mount the pie very close to the side but, for where I want the plugs, I'll need a 1' USB cord inside going to a female USB port externally, and the same on the other box.

No Delay USB Board

[caver01]

@THRobinson The IPAC is a great controller, but you would be extending all of the player 2 wires as I described above. Having a separate controller for each player is a much better modular solution. I just don't know what they do. Are the recognized as gamepads? Keyboards?

[THRobinson]

@caver01 I think I read somewhere that they read as PS3 controllers? Maybe? Site I asked the tech guys for info, lists it as Japan Style Controls which I have no idea what that means.

https://www.focusattack.com/ps3-pc-zero-delay-usb-encoder-pcb-japan-style-controls/

I was looking at more generic eBay ones for $5, but visually, they look the same and come often with arcade kits so, assume they work ok. But, question is, RetroPie, does it save a config file for controller setups? so when I plug in console#2 it'll recognize it and the buttons work? or will I have to reprogram every time I decide to hook it up.

Not a major problem, but I can see it getting annoying fast.

So shut down wise, do you guys use of of the extra 4 admin buttons and do a shut down through there? or hook-up some sorta switch?

Those Mausberry switches look great, but same time, they stick out on the same side as the HDMI. Idea was to mount the Pi at the back/left corner or centre, and make a hole for the HDMI and a hole for power to plug into. Mausberry kinda kills that idea. With an admin button and the joystick, there's a way to just scroll to exit/shutdown I assume. Not ideal but, better than needing a keyboard to type in a shutdown command. I think some people link a button to execute a shutdown script? Maybe add an inset button on the back to press to start shutdown.

Reset button needed? or is that one of the admin buttons as well?

[marie011101]

@caver01 you seem to have good advice. Can I get a good reference on how to setup/ configure my Mayflash F300 Arcade stick to play MAME games

[THRobinson]

Button wise... found this thread last night, seemed good in terms of how many buttons and mapped to what...

https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/5220/arcade-buttons-how-many-layout/5

I guess the extra 4 they have were used for reset/exit/load/save... the a 1/2 player button and coin. Good diagram for the 6-button layout. I'm lucky, in the sense that I haven't played arcade games in decades, or console games, all PC on a keyboard, so I have no set preference for buttons, spacing, mapping... I just need to pick on and I'll get used to it. :D

[THRobinson]

@marie011101 said in Arcade Controller - Button/USB Question:

@caver01 you seem to have good advice. Can I get a good reference on how to setup/ configure my Mayflash F300 Arcade stick to play MAME games

Probably have better luck starting a new separate thread... otherwise your post will likely be missed since kinda unrelated to the thread/OP.

[THRobinson]

Got another question, also buttons...

LED lights for some sets are 12v and some 5v... been looking at the 5v kits that come with the controller PCB boards, and from what I gather the lights are powered via USB. I asked on the RaspberryPi forum, and got sort of an answer but still not sure if will work or not.

USB has 1200mA if 1 in use, 600mA each if 2 in use, 400mA if 3 in use and 300mA each if all 4 are in use.

Typically, I'll have 1 in use for the primary box, so 1200mA... but when I plug in the 2nd box, they'll get 600mA each.

Is that enough to light up the LEDs? All I know is that they're 5v bulbs... I have a vague idea how mA work, and I read somewhere that each LED is about 30mA but haven't confirmed that.

5v 2.5A power supply, and 600mA per USB/box... will that be enough to light up

Box1 - Joystick, 12 buttons
Box 2 - Joystick, 8 buttons

Kit Example
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Easyget-2x-LED-Arcade-Mame-DIY-Kit-Parts-Push-Buttons-Joysticks-USB-Encoders-/172110639584?

I assume if the kit has 20 buttons it will work, but, it doesn't specify if it will on a Raspberry Pi, just that the kit will work on it as well other stuff.

[TMNTturtlguy]

@THRobinson with any LED buttons you will need a powered USB hub or you will probably run into under voltage issues. Here is a good one pihut

[THRobinson]

Hmm, that one comes with a 5V 2A Power supply... which is smaller than what the RaspberryPi3 I have is currently using.

Would I need 2 power supplies? 1 for the pie and one for the hub? Hoping to avoid that since Box1 will soon weigh a tonne with all the extras inside.

I just got a reply on the RaspPi forum... sounds good, but again, as with most questions on forums, I like seeing many people saying the same thing, since inscreases the chances of the info being accurate.

"I have no interest in gaming and haven't built an arcade box. But I do know that 20 LEDs are unlikely to draw over 1 amp, so a 2.5A supply will work and the USB connection will support the satellite controls. Just make sure your USB cables use thick enough wire, particularly since they may be quite long (~2 metres). Lower gauge = thicker wire, look for 22 gauge or better especially for the PSU. (Loss on the satellite controller cable will only mean dim LEDs, loss on the PSU cable will stop the Pi working well.)"

[TMNTturtlguy]

@THRobinson you will need 2 power supplies, 2.5amp for the pi 3 and the power supply for the USB hub. This will allow the pi3 to run off of its own 2.5amp and the hub to run off its own power and not draw from the pi. The other post you quoted my be correct about the LED power draw but a pi 3 running emulation will need more than 1.5 amps. This is why a pi3 needs a 2.5 amp power supply and not a 2amp like earlier pi versions.

There are a lot of other forum topics/threads about the pie power requirements as well as USB hubs. I suggest you search and read those. If you don't want a second power supply either get non led buttons or just don't hook up the led light when you get the buttons. The led buttons have 4 wires, 2 for the button, 2 for the light, just don't light the button.

[caver01]

@THRobinson I agree with others. I have 27 LEDs in my cabinet backlighting buttons and trackball. All are powered via 5v (with current-limiting resistors on each) via USB from a powered hub. This is powered separately from my Pi3 which has dedicated power. I try to power as little as possible through the Pi.

I don't remember who's project on here it was that installed a more robust 5v power supply in their box wired everything to it instead of using a USB wall wart. That might be a possibility for you to, but yeah, doing it right will increase the weight.

[THRobinson]

@TMNTturtlguy said in Arcade Controller - Button/USB Question:

The led buttons have 4 wires, 2 for the button, 2 for the light, just don't light the button.

Do the 5v ones have 4? Looking at the ones in the link, I only ever see 2 at any time... though it does say comes with 20x3-wire connectors for each button, I guess 1-wire is ground, and the 4th prong on each button get daisy chained together?

Non lit buttons for sure would make things way simpler and easier...

So hub wise... I have a power supply direct to the Pi, and a power supply to the Hub... then I guess the USB on the hub goes into the pie, and Box2 when in use will plug into the hub. Will that affect the button mapping? or when I use Box2 and plug it in, will RetroPie remember it and it's button settings? Having Box2 intermittently used, I'm still unclear if Pie will save the settings or will I have to remap every time?

I only have a PS3 controller right now so, can't test a 2nd one to know how it remembers it. Plus Bluetooth so may work differently.

[TMNTturtlguy]

@THRobinson The easy get controls/buttons you have a link to on ebay is exactly the same set I have. the buttons come with a 3 pin connection to the pi board itself, the 3 pin connection has 4 wires, 2 blacks, a red and a yellow. There is no daisy chaining. I have a picture of the button below. Here is a link to a video showing the buttons as well.

I don't have my machine with me to tell you what wire to remove, but it is possible because i am using 4 LED buttons for turbo buttons, the buttons are located under my control panel and the turbo buttons only have 2 pins to the pi, easyget sent me wires for the 2 pin connection and directed me not to wire the lights on the buttons, and it works.

As far as how to set up the controls and the usb hub. The usb hub connects to the pi, that is the only thing you connect to the pi. All your other controllers connect to the hub. So your main box controls will connect to the USB hub as well as player 2. The pi will have no issues reading the controllers from the USB hub and unplugging the controller should be no different than powering off a wireless or bluetooth controller, if there is no power, the PI won't recongize it, but as soon as the controller is powered, or plugged in, pi will read the controller. You may have to make sure you plug the player 2 box into the same usb port each time.

What I would do:

1. Get the non lit buttons! ebay
2. If you really want LED buttons, get the USB hub, get a surge protector power cable. Put the surge protector in your first player main box and plug the pi and the USB hub into that. Have the power cord come out the back of your machine, and now you only have 1 thing to plug into the wall to power both power supplies.
3. Get a usb extension cable. Plug the first player usb into the usb hub. Plug the usb extention cable into the USB hub and mount the other end to the back or side of your Player 1 box. Now the player 2 usb is always plugged into the same port on the hub. You simply plug the player 2 box into the mounted port on the payer 1 box and everything is good to go!

[THRobinson]

eBay seller just responded when I asked about connecting to the Pi... if using two controllers each USB port will provide 600mA... response was...

Actually it's enough for the kit.
We just need 500mA for the encoder to support power for the led push buttons.

Not really leaving a lot of wiggle room but, they say it should work to light up the full kit which contains 20 LED buttons.

That said, I've been looking at the non-LED Seimitsu smoke grey buttons. I was gonna go blue/red and design a top all Tron looking and have it printed, but been seeing a few nice natural wood ones with smokey grey buttons that look pretty nice as well.

Been doing the diagrams online, getting accurate measurements of the PCB boards, RaspPi, buttons, joystick plate, etc... getting stuff laid out for placement and fitment. Half the fun at the arcade as a kid was all the lights, but, between the two forums and the eBay seller, it seems 50/50 if lights would work or not.

If both PCB boards take 500mA each to run the controls/lights... power supply provides 2.5A... that leaves I guess, 1.5A for the Pi itself... ? I know it was stated that Pi running emulation would need more than 1.5A... not sure how much more but I guess it's pushing it.

Is there a way to put resistor on the LEDs so they use half power, and only go half as bright? Just spitballing ideas....

In case I forgot, this was the kit I emailed the seller about
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/172110639584?ul_noapp=true

Right now, I'm trying to price out the parts I need from a couple of online store for Arcade parts, vs these kits off eBay... may boil down to price/availability.

Though, these buttons are sweet... lit or not
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Arcade-Machine-DIY-Gold-LED-Push-Button-Cables-Arcade-Joystick-USB-Encoder-/172442227572?var=471284284690&hash=item28265b9374:g:QeEAAOSwnHZYTmBr

[caver01]

@THRobinson again, I wouldn't plug anything you know is going to draw additional power into the Pi itself. The reason the power supply was made with the additional volts and amps is so the Pi3 can get everything it needs. Sure, you could try it, but I wouldn't. Better to design a solution that gives everything to the Pi so you don't run into undervoltages.

[TMNTturtlguy]

@THRobinson Per the documents on this site, A pi 3 could use up to 1.5A of current. There is always voltage drop across wires, and many power supplies will drop their voltage as the current draws reach their top limit (again, this can be found in the documents on this site, or anywhere online when researching power needs/amps/voltage), so you typically will not get a full 2.5A out of a 2.5A source. So on paper you are correct, if the Pi uses 1.5A at its highest use, and 1 set of controls uses .5A and you have 2 controls running, you are now running at a full 2.5A. If there is any imperfection in your connection or cabling and/or you experience typical voltage drops, you are now under powered and will have issues with your pi not running well/under performing, and possibly getting the lightning bolt symbol.

[THRobinson]

Ya I think sadly I'll just forget the LED's... else Box1 with 2 adapters and a USB hub will be a bit crowded and I suspect a bit heavy.

I suspect cell chargers with 2 USB slots would be the same deal where if both in use each gets half the power.

That YouTube video above... I noticed in his comments that he was having power issues with the LED lights on the Pi, same kit. Not sure if he was using a 2.5A or 2.0A supply. I messaged to see if ever got it sorted out but ya, given that (someone who made an arcade system with the parts in question) I suspect it's a HUB or non-LED buttons.

Big part of this build idea is to have something that can sit in the lap, simply because we have no coffee tables. To keep cables down, I'd have to have 1 power going in, and internally have a small 2-port power block with an AC adapter in each plus a hub, which I think would be heavy, crowded, and possibly a bit hot inside, especially on a warm lap with your hands on top... would almost need to add an 80mm fan at the back to suck heat out.

non-LED would be fine I think... bit warm but not too bad I hope. maybe where the Pi gets mounted, drill some vent holes underneath for a bit of air?

[THRobinson]

Another question, hopefully a quickie...

Looking at these... Neutrick USB ports... because will make the external plugs much easier to do and cleaner to look at.

Unfortunately, if you go to their site it says gender changing, so you'd assume USB female one side, male the other, and it lets you reverse that. But no... it's a female USB on one end, and a female USB-B on the other, the square printer cable type.

I figured, the connection between Box1 and Box2 I can use a heavy/thick printer cable. Should work out, have the USB female end inside the Box2 to connect to the PCB board USB, and on Box1, the connection inside would be the square plug... but was able to find a 6" cable for that.

I assume that will work.

What I'm wondering though... is for power. I don't think I can find a USB-B to Micro for inside the box so may have to face the square end out and buy a new adapter that simply has a USB port on it. If I do that... will it work with a printer cable for power? I assume so because square or flat or micro... it's still a USB cable.

Upside if works, you can get long/thick printer cables pretty easily and cheap, though only need about 2m/6' for both.