Arcade Controller - Button/USB Question

[THRobinson]

Got another question, also buttons...

LED lights for some sets are 12v and some 5v... been looking at the 5v kits that come with the controller PCB boards, and from what I gather the lights are powered via USB. I asked on the RaspberryPi forum, and got sort of an answer but still not sure if will work or not.

USB has 1200mA if 1 in use, 600mA each if 2 in use, 400mA if 3 in use and 300mA each if all 4 are in use.

Typically, I'll have 1 in use for the primary box, so 1200mA... but when I plug in the 2nd box, they'll get 600mA each.

Is that enough to light up the LEDs? All I know is that they're 5v bulbs... I have a vague idea how mA work, and I read somewhere that each LED is about 30mA but haven't confirmed that.

5v 2.5A power supply, and 600mA per USB/box... will that be enough to light up

Box1 - Joystick, 12 buttons
Box 2 - Joystick, 8 buttons

Kit Example
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Easyget-2x-LED-Arcade-Mame-DIY-Kit-Parts-Push-Buttons-Joysticks-USB-Encoders-/172110639584?

I assume if the kit has 20 buttons it will work, but, it doesn't specify if it will on a Raspberry Pi, just that the kit will work on it as well other stuff.

[TMNTturtlguy]

@THRobinson with any LED buttons you will need a powered USB hub or you will probably run into under voltage issues. Here is a good one pihut

[THRobinson]

Hmm, that one comes with a 5V 2A Power supply... which is smaller than what the RaspberryPi3 I have is currently using.

Would I need 2 power supplies? 1 for the pie and one for the hub? Hoping to avoid that since Box1 will soon weigh a tonne with all the extras inside.

I just got a reply on the RaspPi forum... sounds good, but again, as with most questions on forums, I like seeing many people saying the same thing, since inscreases the chances of the info being accurate.

"I have no interest in gaming and haven't built an arcade box. But I do know that 20 LEDs are unlikely to draw over 1 amp, so a 2.5A supply will work and the USB connection will support the satellite controls. Just make sure your USB cables use thick enough wire, particularly since they may be quite long (~2 metres). Lower gauge = thicker wire, look for 22 gauge or better especially for the PSU. (Loss on the satellite controller cable will only mean dim LEDs, loss on the PSU cable will stop the Pi working well.)"

[TMNTturtlguy]

@THRobinson you will need 2 power supplies, 2.5amp for the pi 3 and the power supply for the USB hub. This will allow the pi3 to run off of its own 2.5amp and the hub to run off its own power and not draw from the pi. The other post you quoted my be correct about the LED power draw but a pi 3 running emulation will need more than 1.5 amps. This is why a pi3 needs a 2.5 amp power supply and not a 2amp like earlier pi versions.

There are a lot of other forum topics/threads about the pie power requirements as well as USB hubs. I suggest you search and read those. If you don't want a second power supply either get non led buttons or just don't hook up the led light when you get the buttons. The led buttons have 4 wires, 2 for the button, 2 for the light, just don't light the button.

[caver01]

@THRobinson I agree with others. I have 27 LEDs in my cabinet backlighting buttons and trackball. All are powered via 5v (with current-limiting resistors on each) via USB from a powered hub. This is powered separately from my Pi3 which has dedicated power. I try to power as little as possible through the Pi.

I don't remember who's project on here it was that installed a more robust 5v power supply in their box wired everything to it instead of using a USB wall wart. That might be a possibility for you to, but yeah, doing it right will increase the weight.

[THRobinson]

@TMNTturtlguy said in Arcade Controller - Button/USB Question:

The led buttons have 4 wires, 2 for the button, 2 for the light, just don't light the button.

Do the 5v ones have 4? Looking at the ones in the link, I only ever see 2 at any time... though it does say comes with 20x3-wire connectors for each button, I guess 1-wire is ground, and the 4th prong on each button get daisy chained together?

Non lit buttons for sure would make things way simpler and easier...

So hub wise... I have a power supply direct to the Pi, and a power supply to the Hub... then I guess the USB on the hub goes into the pie, and Box2 when in use will plug into the hub. Will that affect the button mapping? or when I use Box2 and plug it in, will RetroPie remember it and it's button settings? Having Box2 intermittently used, I'm still unclear if Pie will save the settings or will I have to remap every time?

I only have a PS3 controller right now so, can't test a 2nd one to know how it remembers it. Plus Bluetooth so may work differently.

[TMNTturtlguy]

@THRobinson The easy get controls/buttons you have a link to on ebay is exactly the same set I have. the buttons come with a 3 pin connection to the pi board itself, the 3 pin connection has 4 wires, 2 blacks, a red and a yellow. There is no daisy chaining. I have a picture of the button below. Here is a link to a video showing the buttons as well.

I don't have my machine with me to tell you what wire to remove, but it is possible because i am using 4 LED buttons for turbo buttons, the buttons are located under my control panel and the turbo buttons only have 2 pins to the pi, easyget sent me wires for the 2 pin connection and directed me not to wire the lights on the buttons, and it works.

As far as how to set up the controls and the usb hub. The usb hub connects to the pi, that is the only thing you connect to the pi. All your other controllers connect to the hub. So your main box controls will connect to the USB hub as well as player 2. The pi will have no issues reading the controllers from the USB hub and unplugging the controller should be no different than powering off a wireless or bluetooth controller, if there is no power, the PI won't recongize it, but as soon as the controller is powered, or plugged in, pi will read the controller. You may have to make sure you plug the player 2 box into the same usb port each time.

What I would do:

1. Get the non lit buttons! ebay
2. If you really want LED buttons, get the USB hub, get a surge protector power cable. Put the surge protector in your first player main box and plug the pi and the USB hub into that. Have the power cord come out the back of your machine, and now you only have 1 thing to plug into the wall to power both power supplies.
3. Get a usb extension cable. Plug the first player usb into the usb hub. Plug the usb extention cable into the USB hub and mount the other end to the back or side of your Player 1 box. Now the player 2 usb is always plugged into the same port on the hub. You simply plug the player 2 box into the mounted port on the payer 1 box and everything is good to go!

[THRobinson]

eBay seller just responded when I asked about connecting to the Pi... if using two controllers each USB port will provide 600mA... response was...

Actually it's enough for the kit.
We just need 500mA for the encoder to support power for the led push buttons.

Not really leaving a lot of wiggle room but, they say it should work to light up the full kit which contains 20 LED buttons.

That said, I've been looking at the non-LED Seimitsu smoke grey buttons. I was gonna go blue/red and design a top all Tron looking and have it printed, but been seeing a few nice natural wood ones with smokey grey buttons that look pretty nice as well.

Been doing the diagrams online, getting accurate measurements of the PCB boards, RaspPi, buttons, joystick plate, etc... getting stuff laid out for placement and fitment. Half the fun at the arcade as a kid was all the lights, but, between the two forums and the eBay seller, it seems 50/50 if lights would work or not.

If both PCB boards take 500mA each to run the controls/lights... power supply provides 2.5A... that leaves I guess, 1.5A for the Pi itself... ? I know it was stated that Pi running emulation would need more than 1.5A... not sure how much more but I guess it's pushing it.

Is there a way to put resistor on the LEDs so they use half power, and only go half as bright? Just spitballing ideas....

In case I forgot, this was the kit I emailed the seller about
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/172110639584?ul_noapp=true

Right now, I'm trying to price out the parts I need from a couple of online store for Arcade parts, vs these kits off eBay... may boil down to price/availability.

Though, these buttons are sweet... lit or not
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Arcade-Machine-DIY-Gold-LED-Push-Button-Cables-Arcade-Joystick-USB-Encoder-/172442227572?var=471284284690&hash=item28265b9374:g:QeEAAOSwnHZYTmBr

[caver01]

@THRobinson again, I wouldn't plug anything you know is going to draw additional power into the Pi itself. The reason the power supply was made with the additional volts and amps is so the Pi3 can get everything it needs. Sure, you could try it, but I wouldn't. Better to design a solution that gives everything to the Pi so you don't run into undervoltages.

[TMNTturtlguy]

@THRobinson Per the documents on this site, A pi 3 could use up to 1.5A of current. There is always voltage drop across wires, and many power supplies will drop their voltage as the current draws reach their top limit (again, this can be found in the documents on this site, or anywhere online when researching power needs/amps/voltage), so you typically will not get a full 2.5A out of a 2.5A source. So on paper you are correct, if the Pi uses 1.5A at its highest use, and 1 set of controls uses .5A and you have 2 controls running, you are now running at a full 2.5A. If there is any imperfection in your connection or cabling and/or you experience typical voltage drops, you are now under powered and will have issues with your pi not running well/under performing, and possibly getting the lightning bolt symbol.

[THRobinson]

Ya I think sadly I'll just forget the LED's... else Box1 with 2 adapters and a USB hub will be a bit crowded and I suspect a bit heavy.

I suspect cell chargers with 2 USB slots would be the same deal where if both in use each gets half the power.

That YouTube video above... I noticed in his comments that he was having power issues with the LED lights on the Pi, same kit. Not sure if he was using a 2.5A or 2.0A supply. I messaged to see if ever got it sorted out but ya, given that (someone who made an arcade system with the parts in question) I suspect it's a HUB or non-LED buttons.

Big part of this build idea is to have something that can sit in the lap, simply because we have no coffee tables. To keep cables down, I'd have to have 1 power going in, and internally have a small 2-port power block with an AC adapter in each plus a hub, which I think would be heavy, crowded, and possibly a bit hot inside, especially on a warm lap with your hands on top... would almost need to add an 80mm fan at the back to suck heat out.

non-LED would be fine I think... bit warm but not too bad I hope. maybe where the Pi gets mounted, drill some vent holes underneath for a bit of air?

[THRobinson]

Another question, hopefully a quickie...

Looking at these... Neutrick USB ports... because will make the external plugs much easier to do and cleaner to look at.

Unfortunately, if you go to their site it says gender changing, so you'd assume USB female one side, male the other, and it lets you reverse that. But no... it's a female USB on one end, and a female USB-B on the other, the square printer cable type.

I figured, the connection between Box1 and Box2 I can use a heavy/thick printer cable. Should work out, have the USB female end inside the Box2 to connect to the PCB board USB, and on Box1, the connection inside would be the square plug... but was able to find a 6" cable for that.

I assume that will work.

What I'm wondering though... is for power. I don't think I can find a USB-B to Micro for inside the box so may have to face the square end out and buy a new adapter that simply has a USB port on it. If I do that... will it work with a printer cable for power? I assume so because square or flat or micro... it's still a USB cable.

Upside if works, you can get long/thick printer cables pretty easily and cheap, though only need about 2m/6' for both.

[caver01]

@THRobinson I have that USB port on my cabinet. Works great, but designed to be used with a corresponding Netrick hole. My cab has a pair of holes in one of the recessed plates (roadcase) but you could easily measure and drill. It is a hefty port for sure. Very strong.

As for the USB cabling behind it, this got a bit out of hand in my build, so since I posted my project, I have gone back and soldered up custom USB cables for everything. I bought mini, USB-A and B, and micro plugs, shielded 4-conductor usb wire and heatshrink to make all of my own USB cables. The side benefit is that I have been able to make some paracord cables for personal use as well as repair a bunch of lightning cables. SO, the USB components have definitely come in handy.

I think Ultimarc or Groovy Game Gear has a corded USB port that is a little lighter than the Netrick.

[TMNTturtlguy]

@THRobinson I would go for a more simple solution for USB ports, you would have to see if you could get this delivered to you. Stick with standard USB cables this way. amazon For power I would simply run the power through the box and not provide a plug point. If you wanted to have a power supply plug i would use one of these, however they don't have mounting screws amazon.

Per your previous post, i am concerned about the weight of this box on a lap. What are you building the box out of? 1/2 or 3/4 MDF? that stuff is heavy. The monitor will also be heavy for a lap, a 15" desktop flat monitor has a lot of weight when you sit it on your lap, they are heavier than a laptop. Combine that with the box and controls, this is going to be bulky and heavy. How do you intend to play the joystick and buttons on your lap, the controls will end up being very close to your stomach and hard to use, and if this is sitting on player 1's lap, how does player 2 view the screen if setting next to them? Not trying to ruin your plans, just asking some questions. Maybe a quick sketch might help us better understand your ideas for the build. Thanks

[THRobinson]

@caver01 said in Arcade Controller - Button/USB Question:

@THRobinson I have that USB port on my cabinet. Works great, but designed to be used with a corresponding Netrick hole. My cab has a pair of holes in one of the recessed plates (roadcase) but you could easily measure and drill. It is a hefty port for sure. Very strong.

Ya... seems like heavy duty stuff and I saw a few images of it mounted from the inside, but I didn't want to drill into the wood and have it at what looks like about 1/8" thick ... instead I may use a dremel/router and inset it at the back 1/8"... though likely I'll get lazy on that part and just screw nail it in and call it a day. :D I had a few ideas for the external ports, but for the price, this is as cheap and way easier. Just drill holes and slide it in, screw and done.

Soldering actually would make things easier I think, cleaner and tidier for sure. Shame those Neutricks didn't have just solder joints one one end. I'll check those two other sites out.

@TMNTturtlguy - I was originally looking at those same panel mount cables on eBay. China was cheap, price triples in N.America but lately my luck has been so bad with China stuff that I won't buy from there, especially off eBay/Amazon. Plan was a small metal plate on the back screwed in, hole for the port, and bolt the plug to the plate.

Monitor idea is gone... previous plan was a small bar-top, but shifted to a 2-box controller... Box1 has all the buttons and RaspPi and plugs into the TV HDMI to play... if a 2nd player wants to play, they connect to Box1 via USB and Box2 only has the basic buttons and a PCB board inside. 90% of the time Box1 will be used for solo play. Original idea was to design graphics and make it out of 1/2" MDF with glued in braces inside for screws. Having gone to school for design, that would have been fun to do and have printed on vinyl. But, now I am thinking nice quality 1/2" hardwood, clearcoated with the smoke grey buttons and smoke grey bubble ball top, and prob red 24mm buttons at the rear for the aux buttons and two on top for coin/player to add some colour.

I know, easier solution is 1 box, and 2nd player can use the PS3 controller via bluetooth but, lets face it, arcade buttons and joysticks are more fun.

I have a sketch I am working on now in Illustrator. Been printing it out and pretending it's real to get a placement I like. Spacing is all sorted for buttons/joystick... think it was a Sega layout and moved the joystick left another inch or so, just debating overall size of the box now. I have placeholders to scale of the PCB board and RaspPi and the plate size of the joystick so I can sort out where things will fit so hopefully when done it's straight forward.

I don't have it here with me (at work... working very hard) but can post it later.

Laptop wise, I hear ya... control box isn't ideal in the lap, but, no coffee tables, may have to pull up a chair or stool to the couch, I dunno... kind of a 'too bad' factor for that because no room for a full cabinet like I wanted, bar-top is cool but also a storage issue when not in use. Coffee table wise, we just don't want one. Be tripping over it constantly.

When no one around and just me, I'll be at my TV (not the family room one) in which case I'll be in a lazy-boy with the feet up... should be fine in that situation.

[TMNTturtlguy]

@THRobinson How are you connecting to the TV? Are you going to try a wireless hd connection? or are you still planning on a wired HDMI? Have you thought about simplifying the entire build and just putting the raspberry pi in a case next to the TV and then build 2 really nice arcade control boxes? This way the pi is portable and can plug into the wall and TV cleanly. No issues with weight or cooling. Then just get usb extension cables so the control boxes can be located further away from the TV. Now you have nice light weight control boxes and get rid of all of the cost and complexity of putting the pi inside of control box 1. There are a ton of cool design builds for this out there. If you want to take the system with you, it is just one small extra piece to carry the pi itself.

[THRobinson]

Back of Box1 will have 4-24mm buttons recessed so not accidentally pressed... plus two ports on the left... one for the USB power, and a female HDMI. Then I'll just get a good quality long HDMI cable to plug in at both ends (Box1 and TV).

I have the RaspPi now in a small case, typical free kit case. Nice that it's so small, but also kinda dumb... too small/light and never stays put when plugged in and cables moving.

I debated what you're saying... box at the TV and 2 ports for USB at the front. Then make 2 identical controllers, but, then you now have 3 boxes not 2. Less portable IMO, because if just 1 player, you have 2 boxes, an HDMI cable, a USB cable for power and a USB cable for the controller, instead of 1 box and a power/HDMI cable.

Upsides/downsides to both really... if I went 3-box... I'd have to build a new Pi box. That plastic little case is just too light.

Then again, separate box means that the LEDs are back in play.

Dammit TMNTturtleguy... now I gotta go back to debating again. :D

[TMNTturtlguy]

@THRobinson SORRY! Just trying to throw out some ideas and ask some questions, I have about 4 builds going of various shapes and sizes and have already done all the homework you are doing now! Just sharing what I learned so you can get the best custom box that meets all of your needs! I am sure whatever you decide to do, it will turn out great. Another thing you might want to look into is the guys on here that make retro boxes in old NES and SNES consoles. They have great ways of wiring ports and connections from the pie to the case so they look almost exactly like the old 80's 90's boxes, sometimes you can't even tell they have been modded! They do the soldering as you have suggested, you might learn some things from their builds. @japanwings

[caver01]

@THRobinson I like your interactive planning here. I know it is ultimately your decision what to build, but it is fun to collaborate. I have a friend who wants something similar to what you are building, so going through the design iterations is a great exercise that probably benefits other readers as well.

Arcade controls in your lap is a bit of a contradiction in some respects, but I can see how it might work. However, you need to be thinking about how it will feel to have both a USB and an HDMI coming out the side. Seems like that HDMI might have the tendency to come out, while a micro USB grips a bit better. We use laptops at work with HDMI connected for meetings and I gotta tell ya, you don't really want to move them around too much--and that's on a table, not your lap!

Finally, cords coming out the side seems like a hinderance. It depends on your chair, but I can see this rubbing against chair arms, hitting your knees etc. while a cord coming out the back, toward the TV would me more conducive to "arcade controls in your lap". Just two more cents for ya. Take it or leave it, but a fascinating project.

[THRobinson]

@TMNTturtlguy haha, no worries... I'm in the planning phase which is why I like using forums... you get other ideas and hopefully avoid headaches on stuff like this.

Staring to think, the more elaborate my idea gets, the more wires and cables get involved and lost the LED lights. Basically, a 3-box setup would be like having an NES system again more or less. Plus I gain the LED option again, which is the absolute least important part of the build, but also fun. Plus I can add that mausberry (or similar) shutdown button to the console.

Put inside the box the RaspPi, a powered Hub, I also have a new 80mm PC fan sitting in a box at home I bought for a case but never used. Put some venting in the box. Maybe use an adapter to the USB hub if enough power?

Modify a USB bracket on the front for USB cables. I still like the idea of having USB cables that can be removed on both ends.

Only factor that I can't change... is being in the lap. Maybe bring the dining chairs out and use as tables... otherwise, no options there. Else I'll be at IKEA for hours debating a coffee table, that I'll then have to bring around with me depending which room I play in. :D

Well... time to ponder... re-price some parts... then wait a month for everything to finally show up. :D