Arcade-Style Analog Joysticks?

[westopher]

@ashpool The PhD comment was based on what I've been trying to digest with respect to an Ultimarc UltraStik 360. It appears like it might be doable, but I think my brain started frying about 10 minutes into reading about it.

Old flight sticks, etc., really just isn't the same for something like Food Fight, which is really the target. The joystick on those cabinets originally was quite similar to any arcade joystick back in the day in terms of size, shape, etc. — it was just analog. The key is being able to grip the thing with a fist, with fingertips, or however you feel the most control.

With an UltraStik, I'd have to build something to hold it and sit next to my X-Arcade unit. I'm not married to building — I just want a stick that's effectively like the UltraStik — but is known to work with RetroPie without a bunch of brain damage.

[westopher]

@iandaemon Exactly — anything with switches isn't it. (I have that today with an X-Arcade Tankstick.) In the original arcade machine, Food Fight used potentiometers so you could point your character in any direction, 360°, rather than 4 or 8 ways.

[IanDaemon]

@westopher So you're looking for a rotating joystick like Ikari Warriors had? I use my Tankstick for Robotron 2084 and Cloak & Dagger all the time.

[mahoneyt944]

@westopher any analog flight stick would work. Though for what it's worth, I've actually created a joystick hack for food fight in mame2003-plus. This will allow any joystick ( digital or analog) to play well.

If you want you try it, all you need to do is load food fight in mame2003-plus. Then open the mame menu -> dip switches-> live center -> on

Then in that same menu set debounce delay to about 3. For analog you're good to go.

For digital you must also open the Retroarch menu-> quick menu-> options-> center joystick axis for digital controls -> on. This emulates the center position of a true analog stick.

Some other tips would be to verify in the mame menu under "input this game" that your dpad or analog is mapped to the directional movements the way you want....if you're using a digital joystick, map it digital, etc.

Live center basically tracks your joystick and allows you to face in the direction last applied when you stop to throw things. Debounce delay allows the user to increase or decrease how often these stopping points are tracked to better stop on diagonals. The higher the value is the longer the time is between captures.

[westopher]

@mahoneyt944 Thanks, but I'm not sure I'm following exactly. How would that allow an 8-way digital joystick (like the one on my X-Arcade Tankstick) — which points at 0°, 45°, 90°, 135°, 180°, 225°, 270°, and 315° — to, for example, move in a direction such as 120°, 200°, or any value other than the 8 listed?

At the end of the day, that's the problem I'm trying to solve. The game is perfectly operable with an 8-way joystick, but it's not how the arcade game worked, and it's a miserable playing experience. But I might be missing something in what you described.

[westopher]

@iandaemon I've never heard it called rotating, but yes... Free movement in any direction, 360° — not limited to the 8 directions on an 8-way stick. An 8-way stick actually works for a lot of games, but as I explained in the other reply, for Food Fight in particular, it's a miserable playing experience. It's just not how the game worked in the arcade.

[mahoneyt944]

@westopher the live center hack will not give you more directions outside of your 8 way. But what it does is allow you to stop facing the direction you last pushed to aim properly.

If you play an actual food fight machine, the game controls would allow you to press the stick slightly in a direction and your eyes would aim in that direction without actually moving your player on screen. This allows you to stand still, aim and fire.

You'll notice in emulation of food fight when you let go of the stick your player always snaps to facing right, and this is the correct behavior, though it doesn't seem right. The real joystick had a decent range in motion to get the aiming effect described above. Press slightly to aim, press fully to run.

So what's the issue? On today's analog controllers (xbox, playstation, or whatever) the analog sticks are very stubby and there isn't much distance between center and all the way on. So it can be very difficult to stand still and throw things. Live center emulates this inner range of control you'd normally have to aim properly. On a analog stick it plays perfectly and on a digital controller it plays as good as you can get for digital.... Due to the limitation of 8 way, though to be noted, this is similar to how the atari home console version would play. So this hack is in the spirit of the game. Video of 7800

[westopher]

@mahoneyt944 Ooooookay, now what you said is sinking-in. It didn't resonate at first because my play technique in the game is different. I'm not sure I ever recall standing still to throw stuff back in my teens when I played this at the arcade that would eventually employ me back then. :-)

Even today, I find I'm always on the move in that game. I was never a champion-level player in any arcade game (and surely am not now), but I held my own in Food Fight then, and I seem to do OK with it today. But technique aside, yes, the "throw" of the joystick movement isn't great on these modern handheld console controllers.

My biggest issue is stability, and grip. I want a substantial, arcade size and arcade shape joystick mounted in something akin to the X-Arcade — back to the original post — and the Pro Controller is a pale imitation of it on every level.

Alas, it's better than not being able to play the game. I still wish I could find someone who's actually gotten an UltraStik 360 to work with RetroPie, but so far, I'm coming-up dry in terms of step-by-step instructions anyway.

Thanks for the insights and thoughts regardless. Appreciate it.

[Ashpool]

@westopher said in Arcade-Style Analog Joysticks?:

@iandaemon I've never heard it called rotating, ....

Special kind of stick, for controling movement whilst shooting in another direction (example ikari warrior), but food fight is using, as you said, an analog stick (both type of sticks are not synonymes of each other). [Sources: Arcade Museum: Ikari Warrior, Food Fight]

P.S.: With the Ultimarc UltraStik... well, that is a special Stick for your DIY multi-purpose/one solution projects and yes, will need a few RTFM Moments... As it is trying to be, as we in germany would name it, a "Eierlegende Wollmilchsau". As for Hardcore Fans of "digital" Sticks, it is missing the haptical feel of 'em... But well, maybe as it is a true analog stick, and if one is ignoring all the extra benefits it offers, it could be simply used as such ? Still, as I always was in favour of the "Flight Stick"-style (Quickshot II Turbo vs. Competition Pro), I seem to have missed the time where it became either gamepad or flightstick style on the PC market and the simple analog Stick + 2 buttons on base (In Gameport times I had a few where the springs for either axis could be unhooked, so that it acted as a throttle on those axes) are hard to be found now | are they still available/manufactured nowadays?)...

P.P.S.: Seeing such Wiki Articles now(adays) are somewhat frustrating me: Analog-Stick - sigh...

[westopher]

Special kind of stick, for controling movement whilst shooting in another direction (example ikari warrior),

Ah, OK. I learned something here!

"Eierlegende Wollmilchsau"

Hahahahaha! I learned another thing today! Yes, I totally understand.

P.P.S.: Seeing such Wiki Articles now(adays) are somewhat frustrating me: Analog-Stick - sigh...

That article leaves a lot to be desired. Lots of words, and yet says very little that's useful!

I may take another pass at searching for details on the UltraStik 360 + RetroPie, and think more carefully whether it's something I might want to try — or not. Part of me, at this point, wants to just load MAME directly on something like an Intel NUC, running Windows, and call it done. I really only use the arcade functionality of RetroPie, and perhaps another platform would be better suited to what I actually want.

But... The tiny little Raspberry Pi is appealing for many reasons — cost among them — so who knows.

Thanks for replying.