The roms versions are ridiculous

BuZz

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

samples column entry where? i have to say, i hate the edits done so far. 'reference set' is not a defined mame/fba term and only refers to a specific romsite's listings.

I agree and I don't want it there. Whoever added it please remove it, or I will just revert it back to as it was. As soon as I saw it it looked like "Aiding people to download roms" to me.

Alturis

Reverted. I am telling you people are going to keep being confused by the terminology in that paragraph and getting started from scratch though. Just trying to help.

BuZz

@markwkidd Whilst on the subject of documentation - I also have a problem with your edit - here

commit - c8f903b8ebbd7df2327fda287883948ef87a3942 - note about ROM status

diff --git a/Vectrex.md b/Vectrex.md
index e8d9fd8..754731a 100644
--- a/Vectrex.md
+++ b/Vectrex.md
@@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
 ![Vectrex](http://standalonepost.com/sites/all/pictures/Nikopik/Vectrex_logo.png)
 ***
-_The Vectrex is a vector display-based home video game console released in 1982_
+_The Vectrex is a vector display-based home video game console released in 1982_ Vectrex ROMs have been released into the public domain by their publisher and can be freely distributed and shared.

Where is the citation or reference for this ? It is important for things like this to come with more information - I cannot just trust an edit like this otherwise. (I know you changed it later to say original roms, but I still need a reference)

Alturis

Split sets are how most downloaded complete MAME romsets are presented.

Was trying to help people get from there to working games without having to process the set to create a non-merged or merged full set as they are likely to not even read that far or may already have a split set they are wondering what to do with.

Briefly explaining why what they have downloaded is not likely to work unless they have the entire thing copied over to roms folder (not likely) seemed important.

BuZz

@alturis I didn't have a problem with you explaining terminology. I had a problem with the first sentence which looked pretty intentional.

dankcushions

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Split sets are how most downloaded complete MAME romsets are presented.

i don't think that's true. the last sets i've got have been non-merged. either way, i don't think we need to explain split/non-merged in this basic guideline. just instruct to put the entire set in your directory and you will have no dependency issues. if users want to trim down that set, then they have to look into that kind of thing (which is all in the filtering/validating wiki page).

Alturis

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

samples column entry where?

If you look at the edit history you will see that my original edit included a paragraph explaining the importance of referring to the compatibility list and briefly explaining what the Parent and BIOS columns meant.

Then the "Samples" paragraph followed that carrying the same line of thinking from the previous. markwkidd had removed that first paragraph in his later edit.

@dankcushions : "i don't think that's true. " I copied that line of text verbatim from literally the first google link that comes up when you search for a full set.

How about this.....

"Start by locating a Full Set for the MAME or FB-Alpha emulator you wish to use. Incorrect versions will cause most or all games to immediately exit. In other words, lr-mame2003 will only work correctly with MAME 0.78 ROMs, mame4all will only work with MAME 0.37b5 ROMs, and so on. (see chart below)

Each game zip contains multiple files needed for it and many games share files. It is critical that you refer to the compatibility list for the emulator you are using (see chart below) and check the "Parent" and "BIOS" columns. If a game has a Parent entry, it requires all the files within the game zip plus the files contained in the parent game zip. If the game has a BIOS entry, it also requires all the files from that bios zip. Extract all files from the Bios zip and/or the Parent zip and add them into the Game zip that you want to play. See "Further Reading" below for more info on other ways to manage this by creating a Non-Merged or Merged set.

Some games also have a "Samples" column entry which is referring to a zip file containing a set of audio files included in the Reference Set in a "samples" folder. These zip files are generally installed in the /BIOS/[emulator]/samples folder ( e.g. /BIOS/mame2003/samples ) but this can vary depending on the emulator.

Other games may also require disk image data (chd) files that need to be installed into a folder within the appropriate roms folder of the same name as the game zip file. ( roms/arcade/game.zip, and roms/arcade/game/ folder with chd files )"

dankcushions

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

samples column entry where?

If you look at the edit history you will see that my original edit included a paragraph explaining the importance of referring to the compatibility list and briefly explaining what the Parent and BIOS columns meant.

Then the "Samples" paragraph followed that carrying the same line of thinking from the previous. markwkidd had removed that first paragraph in his later edit.

@dankcushions : "i don't think that's true. " I copied that line of text verbatim from literally the first google link that comes up when you search for a full set.

How about this.....

"Start by locating a Full Set for the MAME or FB-Alpha emulator you wish to use. Incorrect versions will cause most or all games to immediately exit. In other words, lr-mame2003 will only work correctly with MAME 0.78 ROMs, mame4all will only work with MAME 0.37b5 ROMs, and so on. (see chart below)

Each game zip contains multiple files needed for it and many games share files. It is critical that you refer to the compatibility list for the emulator you are using (see chart below) and check the "Parent" and "BIOS" columns. If a game has a Parent entry, it requires all the files within the game zip plus the files contained in the parent game zip. If the game has a BIOS entry, it also requires all the files from that bios zip.

again my preference is that we don't cater for customising/reducing romsets on this 'quick start' page. i feel it suddenly opens up a can of worms that isn't necessary to play arcade games. transfer the whole romset and then you have everything you need. if you don't want to do that - we have another page for that.

Extract all files from the Bios zip and/or the Parent zip and add them into the Game zip that you want to play. See "Further Reading" below for more info on other ways to manage this by creating a Non-Merged or Merged set.

i don't agree with this - users shouldn't have to create their own composite files and will likely get into a mess if they do so. it also presumes they aren't running a non-merged set (as i said, i think is rarely the case mame2003, which is the most popular), and indeed there are tools to convert from a split to a non-merged. this side of things is covered in the validating romsets wiki page: https://github.com/RetroPie/RetroPie-Setup/wiki/Validating,-Rebuilding,-and-Filtering-ROM-Collections

Some games also have a "Samples" column entry which is referring to a zip file containing a set of audio files included in the Reference Set in a "samples" folder. These zip files are generally installed in the /BIOS/[emulator]/samples folder ( e.g. /BIOS/mame2003/samples ) but this can vary depending on the emulator.

Other games may also require disk image data (chd) files that need to be installed into a folder within the appropriate roms folder of the same name as the game zip file. ( roms/arcade/game.zip, and roms/arcade/game/ folder with chd files )"

chd and samples.. i believe these are niche and are covered in their respective emulator pages. the number of people playing chd games via retropie is likely approaching zero.

for me the chief problem with the discourse and documentation around romsets is people getting 'blinded by science' via information overload. i think it's simpler to have two instructions at this basic level: 1) right romset version for emulator. 2) full romset transferred to right directory. you don't need to refer to spreadsheets, or reconstruct zip files.

Alturis

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

full romset transferred to right directory

I don't think it is realistic or practical for people to have an entire rom set installed on whatever system they are configuring. Who does that?

Alturis

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

indeed there are tools to convert from a split to a non-merged

Yes. But information about that is buried within links to other pages of information in the footnotes of this introduction page.

I for one have no interest in wasting any HD space on having an entire rom set non-merged nor merged sitting somewhere on my disk.

Seriously who installs thousands of games most of which are not even working?

dankcushions

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

full romset transferred to right directory

I don't it is realistic or practical for people to have an entire rom set installed on whatever system they are configuring. Who does that?

me :P

like i said, if you don't want to do that, it's time to learn about mame romset dependencies, and we have a page for that.

dankcushions

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Seriously who installs thousands of games most of which are not even working?

the vast majority of the full romset are working in, say, mame2003.

Alturis

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

it's time to learn about mame romset dependencies, and we have a page for that.

That is the kind of thinking that is exactly what I was referring to when I said "the documentation is not organized well or user-friendly for people first ramping up on RetroPie"

The documentation is written in a way that almost intentionally obfuscates what the critically important information is about how the rom sets are stored and what is needed to do in order to get them working.

I seriously doubt anyone first tries to install every game ever created as the "getting started" tutorial process.

Alturis

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Seriously who installs thousands of games most of which are not even working?

the vast majority of the full romset are working in, say, mame2003.

And you want to have the euro, jpn, eng, us, revision 1, revision 2, revision 3, cocktail, etc etc all installed so you can scroll through all that. Really?

mediamogul

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Seriously who installs thousands of games most of which are not even working?

I built my own 0.106 ROM set for AdvanceMAME and keep it intact on my RetroPie setup. Saying that most don't work is a bit of an overstatement. It's true that many don't work, but that's a far sight from "most" when we're talking about nearly 10,000 games.

mediamogul

@buzz said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Where is the citation or reference for this ? It is important for things like this to come with more information

In the mid to late 1990s, I remember several news articles being published about Jay Smith releasing the entire product line into the public domain. I don't know if this was a misrepresentation of the facts on their part, or if I, alongside others, are just remembering it incorrectly. However, after looking into this a little more closely, Jay Smith has more accurately only ever given free permission to the Vectrex community to copy and distribute Vectrex software (I'm still looking for a citation here, but I do believe it exists). This is an important and technically non-binding distinction, as it is not actually releasing anything into the public domain. It also assumes ownership on the part of Jay Smith, perhaps incorrectly so, to trademarked properties, such as 'Star Trek', in which the licenses may have expired.

That being said, US copyright law is funny. It's been litigated many times that if a property's copyright is willfully ignored by the owner for long enough, that property can be argued to be within the public domain. Of course that argument would have to be made in a legal setting, but a case could certainly be made here, as this has been the situation for over two decades now. Even so, the question remains about the licensed properties. However unlikely, even the 'Mr. Boston' liquor company could conceivably take issue with the distribution of their 'Clean Sweep' variant if the license has expired and they thought it didn't represent the current image of their company.

At the end of the day, it's unlikely that anything would come of propagating Vectrex software among the Vectrex community. Jay Smith has allegedly given his permission to propagate the software and even if the licensed properties were an issue, the rights holders would likely see it as a waste of time to go after such a fringe violation. Still, it's important to keep in mind that these titles are technically not in the public domain and caution should be applied accordingly.

dankcushions

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Seriously who installs thousands of games most of which are not even working?

the vast majority of the full romset are working in, say, mame2003.

And you want to have the euro, jpn, eng, us, revision 1, revision 2, revision 3, cocktail, etc etc all installed so you can scroll through all that. Really?

then read https://retropie.org.uk/docs/Validating,-Rebuilding,-and-Filtering-ROM-Collections/ and filter it. the most popular fba .42 romset doesn't include the clones anyway. your instructions require people to go through the 1000s of .zip files and pick out the ones they want to play, and then reconstruct the zip files via cross referencing to a spreadsheet (which may or may not be possible, depending on the type of romset), whereas our validation page will automate the removal of the ones people won't want to play. either way, the arcade quick start is not the place for this information.

That is the kind of thinking that is exactly what I was referring to when I said "the documentation is not organized well or user-friendly for people first ramping up on RetroPie"

The documentation is written in a way that almost intentionally obfuscates what the critically important information is about how the rom sets are stored and what is needed to do in order to get them working.

I seriously doubt anyone first tries to install every game ever created as the "getting started" tutorial process.

to explain further stops it being a quick start. there's no intentional obfuscation - the documentation has been revised many times, and from a support point of view, we get a lot less "how do i mame?" threads than we did. i don't want to deal with the aftermath of people who have attempted to manually create a non-merged set via zipping and unzipping mame files...

Riverstorm

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

I don't it is realistic or practical for people to have an entire rom set installed on whatever system they are configuring. Who does that?

Beginners.

I agree with Dank. You have to decide on an approach and method to transfer the knowledge to your user base. Dump the whole set for a quick start. Getting it up and running then tackle the more advanced concepts and techniques seems reasonable.

ROM's are just the tip of the iceberg with RetroPie. I think they are the easier part of the whole setup. There's so much more going on and features that you can't imagine at first glance. There's a whole complex hierarchy on inputs alone. So many layers like RetroPie, Retroarch, Emulationstation, Libretro, not to mention multiple standalone emulators.

I'm not sure who commented on the docs but I was thinking RetroPie has some of the best and it keeps getting better.

Everyone learns differently, there's no one size fits all. You're looking at it from your point of view and how you perceive it should be learned and what you think is easiest to understand in writing. I have to be honest reading the OP last night made me laugh. That stuff is pretty funny, the audacity of people to release an emulator without games!

Adding to Herb's comment along with ScummVM almost all MAME emulators have many free public domain games available for your very much wished fulfillment not to mention homebrew has some fantastic choices too! :)

Riverstorm

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Your instructions require people to go through the 1000s of .zip files and pick out the ones they want to play, and then reconstruct the zip files via cross referencing to a spreadsheet (which may or may not be possible, depending on the type of romset), whereas our validation page will automate the removal of the ones people won't want to play. either way, the arcade quick start is not the place for this information.

Amen.

Alturis

Yes, I am aware of the filtering techniques to choose only the US versions when possible etc. Regardless, having every single game within a romset installed seems entirely silly to me and I expect plenty of others. I cannot possibly be alone in that thinking.

The getting started case for me was hey let me see if I can get my favorite game working. Going through the process of installing all 4000+ games is not the simple way to go there.

Alright. Well, I will just leave things as they are and carry on. As a relative "newbie" here I am explaining how I can see where the confusion comes from and was trying to rectify that by adding just a couple small bits of information that everyone is confused on initially to the very first piece of documentation.

What happens is newcomers arrive and go through that same process of finding the roms, installing them, and seeing that they don't work. The explanation for why should be the first thing they encounter when reading the documentation. Not something they have to learn by clicking on footnote links to additional reading.