The roms versions are ridiculous

dankcushions

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

full romset transferred to right directory

I don't it is realistic or practical for people to have an entire rom set installed on whatever system they are configuring. Who does that?

me :P

like i said, if you don't want to do that, it's time to learn about mame romset dependencies, and we have a page for that.

dankcushions

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Seriously who installs thousands of games most of which are not even working?

the vast majority of the full romset are working in, say, mame2003.

Alturis

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

it's time to learn about mame romset dependencies, and we have a page for that.

That is the kind of thinking that is exactly what I was referring to when I said "the documentation is not organized well or user-friendly for people first ramping up on RetroPie"

The documentation is written in a way that almost intentionally obfuscates what the critically important information is about how the rom sets are stored and what is needed to do in order to get them working.

I seriously doubt anyone first tries to install every game ever created as the "getting started" tutorial process.

Alturis

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Seriously who installs thousands of games most of which are not even working?

the vast majority of the full romset are working in, say, mame2003.

And you want to have the euro, jpn, eng, us, revision 1, revision 2, revision 3, cocktail, etc etc all installed so you can scroll through all that. Really?

mediamogul

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Seriously who installs thousands of games most of which are not even working?

I built my own 0.106 ROM set for AdvanceMAME and keep it intact on my RetroPie setup. Saying that most don't work is a bit of an overstatement. It's true that many don't work, but that's a far sight from "most" when we're talking about nearly 10,000 games.

mediamogul

@buzz said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Where is the citation or reference for this ? It is important for things like this to come with more information

In the mid to late 1990s, I remember several news articles being published about Jay Smith releasing the entire product line into the public domain. I don't know if this was a misrepresentation of the facts on their part, or if I, alongside others, are just remembering it incorrectly. However, after looking into this a little more closely, Jay Smith has more accurately only ever given free permission to the Vectrex community to copy and distribute Vectrex software (I'm still looking for a citation here, but I do believe it exists). This is an important and technically non-binding distinction, as it is not actually releasing anything into the public domain. It also assumes ownership on the part of Jay Smith, perhaps incorrectly so, to trademarked properties, such as 'Star Trek', in which the licenses may have expired.

That being said, US copyright law is funny. It's been litigated many times that if a property's copyright is willfully ignored by the owner for long enough, that property can be argued to be within the public domain. Of course that argument would have to be made in a legal setting, but a case could certainly be made here, as this has been the situation for over two decades now. Even so, the question remains about the licensed properties. However unlikely, even the 'Mr. Boston' liquor company could conceivably take issue with the distribution of their 'Clean Sweep' variant if the license has expired and they thought it didn't represent the current image of their company.

At the end of the day, it's unlikely that anything would come of propagating Vectrex software among the Vectrex community. Jay Smith has allegedly given his permission to propagate the software and even if the licensed properties were an issue, the rights holders would likely see it as a waste of time to go after such a fringe violation. Still, it's important to keep in mind that these titles are technically not in the public domain and caution should be applied accordingly.

dankcushions

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Seriously who installs thousands of games most of which are not even working?

the vast majority of the full romset are working in, say, mame2003.

And you want to have the euro, jpn, eng, us, revision 1, revision 2, revision 3, cocktail, etc etc all installed so you can scroll through all that. Really?

then read https://retropie.org.uk/docs/Validating,-Rebuilding,-and-Filtering-ROM-Collections/ and filter it. the most popular fba .42 romset doesn't include the clones anyway. your instructions require people to go through the 1000s of .zip files and pick out the ones they want to play, and then reconstruct the zip files via cross referencing to a spreadsheet (which may or may not be possible, depending on the type of romset), whereas our validation page will automate the removal of the ones people won't want to play. either way, the arcade quick start is not the place for this information.

That is the kind of thinking that is exactly what I was referring to when I said "the documentation is not organized well or user-friendly for people first ramping up on RetroPie"

The documentation is written in a way that almost intentionally obfuscates what the critically important information is about how the rom sets are stored and what is needed to do in order to get them working.

I seriously doubt anyone first tries to install every game ever created as the "getting started" tutorial process.

to explain further stops it being a quick start. there's no intentional obfuscation - the documentation has been revised many times, and from a support point of view, we get a lot less "how do i mame?" threads than we did. i don't want to deal with the aftermath of people who have attempted to manually create a non-merged set via zipping and unzipping mame files...

Riverstorm

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

I don't it is realistic or practical for people to have an entire rom set installed on whatever system they are configuring. Who does that?

Beginners.

I agree with Dank. You have to decide on an approach and method to transfer the knowledge to your user base. Dump the whole set for a quick start. Getting it up and running then tackle the more advanced concepts and techniques seems reasonable.

ROM's are just the tip of the iceberg with RetroPie. I think they are the easier part of the whole setup. There's so much more going on and features that you can't imagine at first glance. There's a whole complex hierarchy on inputs alone. So many layers like RetroPie, Retroarch, Emulationstation, Libretro, not to mention multiple standalone emulators.

I'm not sure who commented on the docs but I was thinking RetroPie has some of the best and it keeps getting better.

Everyone learns differently, there's no one size fits all. You're looking at it from your point of view and how you perceive it should be learned and what you think is easiest to understand in writing. I have to be honest reading the OP last night made me laugh. That stuff is pretty funny, the audacity of people to release an emulator without games!

Adding to Herb's comment along with ScummVM almost all MAME emulators have many free public domain games available for your very much wished fulfillment not to mention homebrew has some fantastic choices too! :)

Riverstorm

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Your instructions require people to go through the 1000s of .zip files and pick out the ones they want to play, and then reconstruct the zip files via cross referencing to a spreadsheet (which may or may not be possible, depending on the type of romset), whereas our validation page will automate the removal of the ones people won't want to play. either way, the arcade quick start is not the place for this information.

Amen.

Alturis

Yes, I am aware of the filtering techniques to choose only the US versions when possible etc. Regardless, having every single game within a romset installed seems entirely silly to me and I expect plenty of others. I cannot possibly be alone in that thinking.

The getting started case for me was hey let me see if I can get my favorite game working. Going through the process of installing all 4000+ games is not the simple way to go there.

Alright. Well, I will just leave things as they are and carry on. As a relative "newbie" here I am explaining how I can see where the confusion comes from and was trying to rectify that by adding just a couple small bits of information that everyone is confused on initially to the very first piece of documentation.

What happens is newcomers arrive and go through that same process of finding the roms, installing them, and seeing that they don't work. The explanation for why should be the first thing they encounter when reading the documentation. Not something they have to learn by clicking on footnote links to additional reading.

Riverstorm

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

I cannot possibly be alone in that thinking.

I would think no you're probably not alone in that thinking but from say Buzz, Herb, Dank, Media, etc. (not to mention all the backfield editors) points of view are different. Those guys basically have to mediate the forum day in and day out have a pretty good pulse on what's working and what's not in the docs. I don't think a single one is getting rich from this and I hope they do sleep better at night knowing they are doing something mostly out of passion that's incredibly cool.

That being said I don't think they are against new and better methods of transferring knowledge but your ideas will probably be challenged and require some extra work on your part. There's nothing like a well constructed and written thought. Lay out some documentation for proof reading. Retro-gaming made easy! How passionately you feeling about all this? ;)

rbaker

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

What happens is newcomers arrive and go through that same process of finding the roms, installing them, and seeing that they don't work.

I disagree. People who do this have not followed the guide. I followed the guides which specifically state that you shouldn't try to install single roms. I got the 0.78 set, uploaded it. I played everything I wanted. I then learned about filtering, overlays etc later.

dankcushions

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Yes, I am aware of the filtering techniques to choose only the US versions when possible etc. Regardless, having every single game within a romset installed seems entirely silly to me and I expect plenty of others. I cannot possibly be alone in that thinking.

i'm not saying it isn't! the 'quick start' isn't the 'best start' guide, but it's my experience that the documentation spirals out of control once you start getting into filtering. i've yet to see a guide that combines both without reinforcing the belief that mame is witchcraft :)

The getting started case for me was hey let me see if I can get my favorite game working. Going through the process of installing all 4000+ games is not the simple way to go there.

Alright. Well, I will just leave things as they are and carry on. As a relative "newbie" here I am explaining how I can see where the confusion comes from and was trying to rectify that by adding just a couple small bits of information that everyone is confused on initially to the very first piece of documentation.

What happens is newcomers arrive and go through that same process of finding the roms, installing them, and seeing that they don't work. The explanation for why should be the first thing they encounter when reading the documentation. Not something they have to learn by clicking on footnote links to additional reading.

i definitely think the docs could be better and i'm sure there is a middle ground, but the people that quick start is aimed at are coming from the P.O.V that mame is witchcraft and impossible to understand. it's a powerful thing to have a page with two steps that will always result in a working mame setup, no matter how impractical that setup may be.

jonnykesh

@dankcushions I totally agree with this. Easy 2 step guide; get it working and the games running. Then people say "Do I really need 300 versions of Mah-jong?, what do I need to do to get just what I want?"
Then they start delving into how MAME actually works and how to either filter ROMs using software or manually.

Alturis

Can we maybe just make a simple change to the wording and presentation?

How about changing:

"full Non-Merged ROM collection"

to

"Full Non-Merged ROM Set"

Though, still, when you look for such a thing what you will find are Split sets. Which leads to the confusion. Though installing the whole thing will still work. But installing the whole thing is definitely a hurdle in my eyes. Working with only an 8 gig microSD the one thing I was avoiding was doing something like that right out of the gate.

jonnykesh

@alturis Each individual game is actually a "ROM set" so in this case collection is the correct terminology.

markwkidd

@buzz said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@markwkidd Whilst on the subject of documentation - I also have a problem with your edit - here

commit - c8f903b8ebbd7df2327fda287883948ef87a3942 - note about ROM status
diff --git a/Vectrex.md b/Vectrex.md
index e8d9fd8..754731a 100644
--- a/Vectrex.md
+++ b/Vectrex.md
@@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
 ![Vectrex](http://standalonepost.com/sites/all/pictures/Nikopik/Vectrex_logo.png)
 ***
-_The Vectrex is a vector display-based home video game console released in 1982_
+_The Vectrex is a vector display-based home video game console released in 1982_ Vectrex ROMs have been released into the public domain by their publisher and can be freely distributed and shared.
Where is the citation or reference for this ? It is important for things like this to come with more information - I cannot just trust an edit like this otherwise. (I know you changed it later to say original roms, but I still need a reference)

Fair enough, I will find this. Note that RetroArch itself distributes those Vectrex ROMs (you can probably even download them within RetroPie once you get into the RetroArch GUI). Twinaphex is definitely not distributing ROMs without permission :)

I used to have a copy of the letter from the original Vectrex publisher but I can't find my copy their site seems to have disappeared. I'll dig it up.

Edit: @buzz it seems I do need to tweak my language to make it accurate regarding Vectrex. It does look like Jay Smith also authorized certain commercial uses, but for now the written evidence says "noncommercial" not public domain.

It is a great pleasure to hear from a group of dedicated Vectrex users.
Obviously, it is a great favorite of ours and has a significant place in
our Hall of Fame of toy and game products. We are happy to grant you
the right to continue your personal hobby of using and enhancing the
game system, as long as it is for your personal use and not a commercial
enterprise; in fact, we would be anxious to see your improvements. This
permission extends to the right to copy and distribute the instruction
booklets and service manuals, and to duplicate and/or create game ROM's
for your personal use. When the opportunity arises, please send us a
ROM sample of your work.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.vectrex/02620HV1zeA/F4XiYeN8HFAJ

Heading to the wiki to correct now. Thanks.

Alturis

One final suggestion on wording as I think it is the initial few words of that first paragraph that confuse:

Instead of

"Start with a full Non-Merged ROM collection (not an individual ROM) with the exact MAME or FB Alpha version number for the emulator you wish to use."

How about

"The easiest way to get started running arcade MAME games is to locate a Full ROM Collection (not an individual ROM) with the exact MAME or FB Alpha version number for the emulator you wish to use and install the entire collection."

No mention of Split, Non-Merged, Merged, just "install the entire set of whatever you find" for easiest results.

dankcushions

@alturis i still don't agree that the most common is the split collection. i've just refreshed my memory by googling for the sets of the standard collections and the first result was always the non-merged one.

Alturis

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@alturis i still don't agree that the most common is the split collection. i've just refreshed my memory by googling for the sets of the standard collections and the first result was always the non-merged one.

I am not positive on this one but I think that google tends to push links to the top that you had previously searched and produced. So if you found the non-merged in the past I think that bubbles to the top for you while the split sets bubble to the top for those doing fresh searches?