The roms versions are ridiculous

Riverstorm

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

I cannot possibly be alone in that thinking.

I would think no you're probably not alone in that thinking but from say Buzz, Herb, Dank, Media, etc. (not to mention all the backfield editors) points of view are different. Those guys basically have to mediate the forum day in and day out have a pretty good pulse on what's working and what's not in the docs. I don't think a single one is getting rich from this and I hope they do sleep better at night knowing they are doing something mostly out of passion that's incredibly cool.

That being said I don't think they are against new and better methods of transferring knowledge but your ideas will probably be challenged and require some extra work on your part. There's nothing like a well constructed and written thought. Lay out some documentation for proof reading. Retro-gaming made easy! How passionately you feeling about all this? ;)

rbaker

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

What happens is newcomers arrive and go through that same process of finding the roms, installing them, and seeing that they don't work.

I disagree. People who do this have not followed the guide. I followed the guides which specifically state that you shouldn't try to install single roms. I got the 0.78 set, uploaded it. I played everything I wanted. I then learned about filtering, overlays etc later.

dankcushions

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Yes, I am aware of the filtering techniques to choose only the US versions when possible etc. Regardless, having every single game within a romset installed seems entirely silly to me and I expect plenty of others. I cannot possibly be alone in that thinking.

i'm not saying it isn't! the 'quick start' isn't the 'best start' guide, but it's my experience that the documentation spirals out of control once you start getting into filtering. i've yet to see a guide that combines both without reinforcing the belief that mame is witchcraft :)

The getting started case for me was hey let me see if I can get my favorite game working. Going through the process of installing all 4000+ games is not the simple way to go there.

Alright. Well, I will just leave things as they are and carry on. As a relative "newbie" here I am explaining how I can see where the confusion comes from and was trying to rectify that by adding just a couple small bits of information that everyone is confused on initially to the very first piece of documentation.

What happens is newcomers arrive and go through that same process of finding the roms, installing them, and seeing that they don't work. The explanation for why should be the first thing they encounter when reading the documentation. Not something they have to learn by clicking on footnote links to additional reading.

i definitely think the docs could be better and i'm sure there is a middle ground, but the people that quick start is aimed at are coming from the P.O.V that mame is witchcraft and impossible to understand. it's a powerful thing to have a page with two steps that will always result in a working mame setup, no matter how impractical that setup may be.

jonnykesh

@dankcushions I totally agree with this. Easy 2 step guide; get it working and the games running. Then people say "Do I really need 300 versions of Mah-jong?, what do I need to do to get just what I want?"
Then they start delving into how MAME actually works and how to either filter ROMs using software or manually.

Alturis

Can we maybe just make a simple change to the wording and presentation?

How about changing:

"full Non-Merged ROM collection"

to

"Full Non-Merged ROM Set"

Though, still, when you look for such a thing what you will find are Split sets. Which leads to the confusion. Though installing the whole thing will still work. But installing the whole thing is definitely a hurdle in my eyes. Working with only an 8 gig microSD the one thing I was avoiding was doing something like that right out of the gate.

jonnykesh

@alturis Each individual game is actually a "ROM set" so in this case collection is the correct terminology.

markwkidd

@buzz said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@markwkidd Whilst on the subject of documentation - I also have a problem with your edit - here

commit - c8f903b8ebbd7df2327fda287883948ef87a3942 - note about ROM status
diff --git a/Vectrex.md b/Vectrex.md
index e8d9fd8..754731a 100644
--- a/Vectrex.md
+++ b/Vectrex.md
@@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
 ![Vectrex](http://standalonepost.com/sites/all/pictures/Nikopik/Vectrex_logo.png)
 ***
-_The Vectrex is a vector display-based home video game console released in 1982_
+_The Vectrex is a vector display-based home video game console released in 1982_ Vectrex ROMs have been released into the public domain by their publisher and can be freely distributed and shared.
Where is the citation or reference for this ? It is important for things like this to come with more information - I cannot just trust an edit like this otherwise. (I know you changed it later to say original roms, but I still need a reference)

Fair enough, I will find this. Note that RetroArch itself distributes those Vectrex ROMs (you can probably even download them within RetroPie once you get into the RetroArch GUI). Twinaphex is definitely not distributing ROMs without permission :)

I used to have a copy of the letter from the original Vectrex publisher but I can't find my copy their site seems to have disappeared. I'll dig it up.

Edit: @buzz it seems I do need to tweak my language to make it accurate regarding Vectrex. It does look like Jay Smith also authorized certain commercial uses, but for now the written evidence says "noncommercial" not public domain.

It is a great pleasure to hear from a group of dedicated Vectrex users.
Obviously, it is a great favorite of ours and has a significant place in
our Hall of Fame of toy and game products. We are happy to grant you
the right to continue your personal hobby of using and enhancing the
game system, as long as it is for your personal use and not a commercial
enterprise; in fact, we would be anxious to see your improvements. This
permission extends to the right to copy and distribute the instruction
booklets and service manuals, and to duplicate and/or create game ROM's
for your personal use. When the opportunity arises, please send us a
ROM sample of your work.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.vectrex/02620HV1zeA/F4XiYeN8HFAJ

Heading to the wiki to correct now. Thanks.

Alturis

One final suggestion on wording as I think it is the initial few words of that first paragraph that confuse:

Instead of

"Start with a full Non-Merged ROM collection (not an individual ROM) with the exact MAME or FB Alpha version number for the emulator you wish to use."

How about

"The easiest way to get started running arcade MAME games is to locate a Full ROM Collection (not an individual ROM) with the exact MAME or FB Alpha version number for the emulator you wish to use and install the entire collection."

No mention of Split, Non-Merged, Merged, just "install the entire set of whatever you find" for easiest results.

dankcushions

@alturis i still don't agree that the most common is the split collection. i've just refreshed my memory by googling for the sets of the standard collections and the first result was always the non-merged one.

Alturis

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@alturis i still don't agree that the most common is the split collection. i've just refreshed my memory by googling for the sets of the standard collections and the first result was always the non-merged one.

I am not positive on this one but I think that google tends to push links to the top that you had previously searched and produced. So if you found the non-merged in the past I think that bubbles to the top for you while the split sets bubble to the top for those doing fresh searches?

ChuckyP

When I was first getting into MAME emulation, and found RetroPie and the Raspberry Pi, it was a breath of fresh air. The documents made sense and as I became more advanced the extra links became very helpful as well. I still go to these documents first for even things unrelated to RetroPie to find concise info on various topics.

There is a lot of learning involved and I think the documents encourage a certain direction of discovery on the way to learning the concepts. I would hesitate to change info here, unless outdated or false statements. Just my 2 cents.

herb_fargus

To be fair Mame needs it's own docs separate from retropie altogether with how big it is. We've hashed Mame docs endlessly and I'm sure it will be rehashed again.

I'll be the first to admit docs could be improved having written most of them myself, still way better than they used to be and hopefully they'll continue to improve with further discussion.

Brevity as they say, is the soul of wit.

markwkidd

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@alturis i still don't agree that the most common is the split collection. i've just refreshed my memory by googling for the sets of the standard collections and the first result was always the non-merged one.

I am not positive on this one but I think that google tends to push links to the top that you had previously searched and produced. So if you found the non-merged in the past I think that bubbles to the top for you while the split sets bubble to the top for those doing fresh searches?

A quick incognito session in Chrome suggests that Non-Merged results come to the top for everyone.

My question: how are people finding Split sets for historical MAME cores in this day and age? Even when I add "Split" to my keywords in my incognito Google search I still find Non-Merged at the top of the list.

Alturis

@markwkidd said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Non-Merged results come to the top for everyone.

Maybe we are searching for different things. For me the "reference set" collections always show up first even when I specifically look for non-merged collections.

Alturis

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@markwkidd said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Maybe we are searching for different things. For me the "reference set" collections always show up first even when I specifically look for non-merged collections.

Actually after looking closer it does appear that non-merged shows up first if you specifically look for that. I was confused because it appeared to be the same as my original searches which returned the split sets when I was looking for the emulator version and not the mame version.

Anyway. Feels like too much discussion going on about what to search for so I will stop.

ChuckyP

@markwkidd there are a few iconic sets still available standalone. But you can build any version of MAME with a more recent full set, a rollback set and a .dat file.

dankcushions

@alturis said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

@markwkidd said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

Non-Merged results come to the top for everyone.

Maybe we are searching for different things. For me the "reference set" collections always show up first even when I specifically look for non-merged collections.

the 'reference sets' are non-merged.

markwkidd

I said that backwards. :) Even when I add the word "split" to my search, without "non-merged" as a term, I get the non-merged collections at the top of the google result.

Alturis

@dankcushions said in The roms versions are ridiculous:

the 'reference sets' are non-merged.

Yes, some are. But not the ones I found originally. I promise. ;)
I know because I looked at the contents of the zip files and many of the games I tried to install at first were mysteriously small and would not run until I figured out how the system works.

Edit: Also obviously keeping and using split sets does save so much space. 8 gigs vs 30 gigs for the whole set. I find that I am much happier working with split sets and manually putting rom set zips together for the games I want to install. I hand install each game I want and take the time to configure an overlay, appropriate shader, working video, and best quality image and marquee I can find or hand stitch. Maybe just a different approach than half the others out there.

Alturis

Also, I find that keeping and using split sets is the way to go for my approach to the whole game library thing. I keep a copy of the entire set saved off on my PC for mame2003, fba, mame2010, and advancemame, so I can hand combine the games I want to install, find or hand make an appropriate overlay, best image and marquee I can find or create, convert a working video or manually scrape one myself off of youtube. Basically, every game I add is a conscious decision and I make sure each one gets the attention it deserves.

8 gigs per set vs 30 gigs is all the reason I need to keep them split.

Maybe a different approach than half the others out there who want every possible working game installed.